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Featured Did Jesus Fulfill All The Messianic Prophecies?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noachide Revolutionary
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    No, but try to convince me he did anyway.
     
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  2. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Interesting question, and something I've not really thought about before. Do you know, is there a list somewhere of "all" the messianic prophecies that one could refer to? And I am supposing that those are the prophecies as understood in the Jewish faith, rather than by Christians.
     
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  3. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    That he fits so badly is one of the best arguments for the existence of Jesus the man.
     
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  4. Rival

    Rival Noachide Revolutionary
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    I agree, but not the direction of the thread.
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Noachide Revolutionary
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    "What Will the Mashiach Do?

    Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

    The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

    "Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity."

    Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
     
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:

    The references we have for the word 'Messiah' are Daniel 9:26, and in the Dead sea scrolls version of Isaiah 52:14, which then makes sense to me, why Isaiah 53 has been perceived as Messianic.

    1_58b831e43120e.png

    Both texts appear to say the Messiah will be cut off in someway, which happens specifically in Isaiah 53:9 that the person is put to death with the wicked.

    The additional contexts shouldn't be overlooked tho; so Daniel 9 cites Jeremiah, and based on what he is saying about the 70 years, this to me interlinks with Jeremiah 25.

    In Jeremiah 25:1-14 we have the 70 years reference, which is the same in Daniel 9:1-19, then after there is a curse being put on the nations, that Daniel can't understand so Gabriel comes to explain it (Daniel 9:21-27).. I.e the Abomination of Desolation.

    In Jeremiah 25:15-38 we have the Curse being issued, that all nations will get drunk on the cup the Lord gives them (Communion).

    At Jeremiah 25:33-37 it speaks of another future Destruction (desolation) of Israel caused by the Lord, where they are cut off because of it....

    Same happens in Daniel 9:26-27 the Destruction, and removal of the temple sacrificial system.

    The word used in Jeremiah 25:34-36 speaks of the 'wailing of the shepherds', cutting off of the people, and destruction of the 2nd temple as does Zechariah 11.

    In Zechariah 11:13 they paid the 30 pieces of silver for the price of Yeshua, and put it in the Potters Field in the House of Israel; thus they divorced themselves for a small price as Isaiah 50:1 prophesied.

    Therefore since these events can not happen another time, only Yeshua qualifies as being able to fulfill these prerequisites of the 'Messianic' prophecies.

    The Messianic Age prophecies most people like to cite as having not yet been fulfilled, have interlinking fulfillment with this Curse being removed first. :innocent:

    In my opinion. :)
     
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  7. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Did Alexander the Great fulfil it ?

    Messiah means 'Play like an instrument ' , the Ram horn is used for both 'pouring oil' but it's also a musical instrument .

    1 Kings 1:39
    Zadok the priest took the horn of Music out of the tabernacle and they mused Solomon by blowing the trumpet

    1 Samuel 16:13
    Then Samuel took the horn of Music , and mused him in the midst of his brethren

    Ram horns are also used as battering-rams

    Joshua 6:20
    " the 'ram horns' (battering rams) caused the walls to come down "

    Isaiah 14:12 ' Tyre fell at dawn '
    Joshua 6:12 ' Tyre fell at dawn '


    The Messiah
    [​IMG]

    To this day, the ram horn is blown.
    [​IMG]

    Battering Ram
    [​IMG]

    Ezekiel 4:2
    And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.

    Joshua 6 ( Fall of Tyre - 332 BCE )
    1. City was shut, none went in or out
    3. Compass the city
    4. Seven trumpets ( battering rams) surround the City
    6. Ark of the Covenant with 7 priests with battering rams
    7. Compass the city
    9. Armed men blew (thrust of a weapon) the Ram horns (battering rams)
    11 . Ark compassed the city, going around it once

    ( Alexander's Second Attempt )
    12 - Joshua rose in the morning ( Second Attempt )
    13 - Trumpets (Battering rams) continued
    14 - 2nd day, compassing the city and returned
    16 - 7th day, compass the city
    20 - the 'ram horns' (battering rams) caused the walls to come down
    23 . Allowed Rahab's family to survive ( Alexander spared their lives.)
    24. City burnt and looted
    25 . Not to be rebuilt



    The Quran as an entire chapter dedicated to Alexander the Great
    Alexander the Great in the Quran - Wikipedia

    Talmud
    recorded in both the Talmud (Yoma 69a) and in the Jewish historian Josephus's Book of Antiquities (XI, 321-47). In both accounts the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem, fearing that Alexander would destroy the city, went out to meet him before he arrived at the city. The narrative describes how Alexander, upon seeing the High Priest, dismounted and bowed to him. (Alexander rarely, if ever, bowed to anyone). In Josephus's account, when asked by his general, Parmerio, to explain his actions, Alexander answered, "I did not bow before him, but before that God who has honored him with the high Priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very apparel."

    Alexander interpreted the vision of the High Priest as a good omen and thus spared Jerusalem, peacefully absorbing the Land of Israel into his growing empire. As tribute to his benign conquest, the Sages decreed that the Jewish firstborn of that time be named Alexander – which remains a Jewish name to this very day. And the date of their encounter, the 25th of Tevet, was declared a minor holiday.

    Alexander was hailed as Savior and Liberator, and as the people's choice , He was Anointed as pharaoh in Memphis

    2 Samuel 12:28 - David crowned in 'City of Mim' ( Memphis )
     
    #7 Magus, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  8. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    Wow, I never thought of that. Thanks for noting it.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity What Does the Fox Say?
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    Ok. Lets begin with Abraham the prophet through whom all nations will be blessed. How do we know this is true? Its because of the Jewish History, right? Therefore we are convinced that the promise to Abraham will be fulfilled. It seems like Christians should be able to know whether or not Jesus is the messiah by a similar method. So we look backward in time and then based upon that decide whether to go forward. This is called 'Eyes of faith'. **edit: probably should be called Eyes of Hard Work** So the proof that Jesus is the messiah exists in the future, and our limited knowledge of it is based upon what Jesus has done already. If this is not the kind of proof you seek, then I wonder what proof you have that Abraham is genuine. It goes both ways.
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I don't think that's true. We know it happens because G-d revealed Himself to us identifying Moses as an absolutely true prophet of His. When Moses wrote it in the Torah, we believe it because we know that Moses is a true prophet of G-d.
     
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  11. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Moses also wrote in Torah, that he died.

    Deuteronony 34:5
    So Moses the servant of the LORD died
     
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  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I don't think that he did. But let's say that he did.

    Odd how prophets can tell the future, innit?
     
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  13. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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  14. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Mythic figures don't write books.
     
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  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Prove Moses did not exist.
     
  16. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Moses was never titled Prophet in the narratives, only Aaron, but he also died. So you have to resort to a fantasy to prove a logical fallacy.

    Soothsayer ( synonym with Prophet)
    the art or gift of prophecy by supernatural means. fortune telling, foretelling, divination. prophecy, vaticination, prognostication - knowledge of the future

    Leviticus 19:26 - Thou shalt not practise soothsaying
    Micah 5:12 - I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand;and thou shalt have no more soothsayers
    Leviticus 19:31 “Do not defile yourselves by turning to mediums
    Deuteronomy 18:10-14 ' No soothsaying'
     
  17. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Prove Moon is made of Cheese.
    Prove Cheese is made of Moon.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Um... I hate to break this to you but that does not prove that Moses is myth. It does prove that you're speaking that which you believe, not that which is fact, however.

    Actually, the argument you are trying to decimate goes like this:

    God > creation > Bible

    So you see that if you accept the possibility that God does exist the argument is not circular. We do not believe that God exists only because the Bible says so.
     
  19. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Moses is depicted with two tablets with the 10 commandments, If it takes TWO tablets to write 10 Lines, then how many Tablets would he need to write the entire Torah which contains 5,888 verses

    No room on these tablets
    [​IMG]

    Moses apparently wrote LAWS , were-as most of the so-called Torah is not, but purely Narrative or Mythology
     
    #20 Magus, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
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