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Did Jesus free us from the Law?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Mister Emu, Jun 14, 2005.

  1. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    "The law will not change one jot or one tittle until heavens and earth pass away." Paul abolished the law, not Jesus.
    "After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings" ~Jesus; The Gospel of the Holy Twelve
    "Being crafty, i took you in by deceit" - Paul
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I agree CX... you are either free (under the influence of the Spirit) or not.

    If you are free and your heart follows the spirit, you life is righteous without having to resort to laws.

    Jesus said unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    John313, I would LOVE to see the references for those scriptures. I don't think that they exist in the Bible.
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ah, this is difficult ; I think I want to answer 'yes' - but I must admit to being 'in limbo' - I am trying to work out what I do believe in . The problem is that I had beliefs before joining the forum, and I now find myself being 'drawn' in various directions; I am trying hard to stay 'neutral' until something 'clicks' (I know this sounds wooly-headed, but it's the best I can do at the moment):)
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Jesus tore down legalism as a means of being deemed righteous or that you would be perceived righteous by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). His incarnation, death and resurrection provided atonement for us, without being subject to following the law and all of its rituals like the Pharisees whom Jesus saw as hypocrites and phonies since their heart were inherently wicked. Does that mean we run afoul of the law? No, because in an effort to be obedient to Christ, we should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (Galations 5:22,23) and against such there is no law because you are exhibiting Christ-like traits and there was nothing attributable to Christ that was unlawful or sinful. :)
     
  5. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Michel, The book of Hebrews is a very good book, I shows the superiority of Christ. The book of Hebrews describes in detail not only how he FULFILLS the promises and prophecies of the Old Testemant but is better than everything in the Jewish system of thought. hope this helps some..
     
  6. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    Here you go:

    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. -Matthew 5:18

    "After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings" ~Jesus; The Gospel of the Holy Twelve
    ( In 1870, an Aramaic manuscript entitled "The Gospel of the Nazirenes" was discovered, translated and published. This ancient scripture, hidden away for centuries in a Tibetan monastery, seems in virtually every respect identical to the work by the same title, that was known and widely quoted from in the first century by the church. Many of the most revered early church fathers, as well as a surprising number of scholars today, have boldly declared that the legendary Gospel of the Nazirenes, later to be known as "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve," is nothing less than the long-lost original Gospel which, legend holds, was collectively written by the actual 12 apostles in the period immediately following Christ's death, and upon which all of the Biblical synoptic Gospels are based.)
    http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm

    "But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty, I took you in by deceit."-2 Corinthians 12:16
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Then you should have no trouble referencing three or four of these "revered early church fathers".
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    First, you paraphrased Matthew 5... it doesn't say the law would not "change" from one dipensation to another. It said the words would not change, and they didn't.

    Second... I surely don't find that in my Bible.

    Third... let's look at a MODERN TRANSLATION and in context. I don't speak KJV.

    II Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not act in the same spirit and follow the same course? NIV

    To any reasonable person, he is OBVIOUSLY being sarcastic. Now I don't like the word "obvious", but you have OBVIOUSLY distorted the meaning as you constantly do. So, I am curious to know if you actually took classes to be able to twist the truth like this, or do you come by it naturally?
     
  9. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Believe what you want, the differences are only in the different translations. We can analyze the Hebrew if you want. It is funny that whenever Paul is being deceitful or lying he is "being sarcastic".
    What will the "modern translation" be in another 10 years? or 50 years? will it be the same?
    I did not have to take any classes to know the truth, i have simply read more books than just the bible. i have heard however that priests have to take classes to twist things properly.
     
  10. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I copied and pasted that from the listed link. I do not know where to look for that information. I do know however that the texts is perfectly in line with the teachings of James the brother of Jesus, the one Jesus told his followers to follow. it is not in line with Pauline teachings though, which is why it is rejected.
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    :biglaugh: What nonsense! How, pray tell, do you know this - Ouija Board? :biglaugh:
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well,

    Since Paul agrees with Jesus, I have no problems with him.

    As for you, I have no idea who you follow. Your posts do not indicate someone worth following.
     
  13. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    I think you need to get off of this vendetta against Paul. He does not appear to be in anyway a false teacher. You look at the body of his ministry and teaching and it aligns with the Gospel of Christ. You seem to be steadfast in your belief in these other books that are clearly in direct contrast with New Testament gospel and that's okay, if it's what you believe. But even you must admit there are several flaws and a fair amount of deviation from Christ's teaching. :)
     
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  14. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    From what i have read on the teachings of James, they are just like the Gospel of the Holy Twelve. I do not have original manuscripts to show you, not that you would accept that as proof anyway.
     
  15. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    it is unfortunate you cannot follow it, it would be much better than following the antichrist as most christians do. I guess it is true that in the end times most will not believe.
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Thanks for sharing. Now please answer my question, which had nothing to do with some 2nd century enhancement of a Greek manuscript but, rather, with your unique ability to divine the "teachings of James".
     
  17. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    The only flaws i have seen are in the teachings of Paul. If Paul's teaching was the same as Jesus, then why was he called "The Liar"? Of course the church will just reject documents referring to Paul as a Liar as this will be great for all the sheeple, but nevertheless, they do exist and they are carbon dated to the time of James and Paul. This would of course explain why Paul was so adamant about saying he does not lie.
    "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, know that I do not lie." 2 Corinthians 11:31

    "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost." Romans 9:1

    "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7

    "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not." Galatians 1:20


     
  18. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    from what i have read in his book in the bible, in James the Brother of Jesus
    and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians. I guess since he was a head of the Jerusalem church I could answer your first question by citing any of his writings. I can copy and paste his book from the bible if you want. Ant the Gospel has been traced back to the First century, not the second.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What writings? Give me one scrap of one document having James as its author.
     
  20. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Like i said, i do not have the original texts, they would be in a museum or locked in the vault of the Vatican if they existed, i just have the works/writings attributed to James. If you accept nothing as proof, then there is no point debating with you.
     
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