Besides Josephus: there is Tacitus ( Annals, XV,44), Seutonius in his lives of the Caesars and the (Deified Claudius, XXV,4), Pliny the Younger - Pliny Letters Book X,XCVI, and the Babylonian Talmud, Berakoth 17b Munich Codex.
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Did Jesus exist?
- Thread starter JJ50
- Start date
Besides Josephus: there is Tacitus ( Annals, XV,44), Seutonius in his lives of the Caesars and the (Deified Claudius, XXV,4), Pliny the Younger - Pliny Letters Book X,XCVI, and the Babylonian Talmud, Berakoth 17b Munich Codex.
... and to me Jesus existed as much as Tactius, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Flavius Josephus existed.
Albert Einstein said that, " No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. "
Yes. Seutonius and Tacitus don't say anything about Jesus. They say more about Christians and their beliefs. So they primarily allow us to say something about what early Christian thought and how the Romans viewed them. As such, they say *nothing* about Jesus himself.
Pliny also asks how to deal with early Christians that fail to pledge allegiance to the emperor. Again, Pliny says a bit about what the Christians believe, but he doesn't give great credence to those beliefs (neither do Seutonius or Tacitus).
The reason Aslan mainly uses Josephus is that he is interested in the historical context including other 'messiahs', both prior to and after Jesus. The passages in Josephus concerning Jesus of Nazareth are almost universally regarded as later additions and NOT actually due to Josephus.
But there is enough in the gospels and other apocrypha to get a decent story about Jesus and enough that is known about the times to put that story in context.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Repox
Truth Seeker
I have a far out there opinion. Jesus was God (the Messiah), but he was too direct with Jews and offended them. So, Jesus movement people invented a really good religious story. They called Jesus, who heretofore had been regarded as just a wise man, the son of God. You know the rest of the story.
Serpent Child
Member
No.
I only posted 4. Jesus fulfilled over 25 Messianic prophecies.
All the things you mention are refuted in the Bible. Do you have any evidence the Bible is wrong and 4 honest men lied?
Hi,
You're saying it's true because the NT writers say it is. I'm saying we have no idea who these men are, whether or not they were good people of reputable character. Perhaps they were writing oral traditions passed on by unknown people? Perhaps they ere the enemies of people who followed Jesus pbuh. Who knows.
What we do know is all 4 Gospels were written anonymously. No one wanted to be responsible perhaps.
None of the 4 writers were poor unschooled Aramaic Speaking Jews and none of the original gospels, alleged to have been written in the First Century, are available to see if what we have today is the same.
If this was presented before any Court of Law, it would be deemed to be nothing more than hearsay from unknown sources.
Case dismissed!
The authors of the books is irrelevant. 2 Tim 3:16 says, "ALL Scripture is inspired by God. Whoever write them, they only wrote what God inspired them to writ.
More likely God did not what them to become objects of worship, like Mohammed and the pope have become in their respective religions
That's right and if God has not kept the Bible inerrant, we might as well eat, drink and be happy and forget about this religious stuff.
That is true of any religion, including yours.
Let's see if we can't make sense of things. Who wrote 2 Timothy and when?
To refute this, please tell me who do Jews worship in the place of God?
Inerrant, without error or corruption. Let's put that to the text:
Can you please quote Hebrews 8:9 and briefly explain it to me?
We can put this to the test in our imaginary Courtroom. The first case will be that of Jesus Christ and the NT writers. Please provide a full witness list of the NT writers, so we can at least check their credibility. Obviously Angels and God Himself are excluded from this.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
And you're saying this is true cause Muhammad said whatever. It goes full circle.
I consider this irrelevant silliness and I am not going to play. If you don't accept the NT as being inspired by God, that is your decision.
If you want to discuss any verses in the Bible, I will give you my understanding.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
The Apostle Paul around the time of his death.
According to Christian theology, God incarnate.
Sure, God made a covenant of obedience with the Jews. The Jews failed to hold up their end of the deal. It doesn't say that anything is corrupted.
Who are you to check their credibility?
I had a look to get an idea of date, and the following site Intro to 2 Timothy claims 66-67 A.D.
Would you agree with that date range?
Omega2 claimed the 4 gospel writers remained anonymous in case people started to worship them. He points to Muslims and Catholics as alleged proof of this. before addressing the point, I asked who the Jews were worshipping in error if that's the case? We know the Prophets who writing the books of the Torah, yet I don't see people worshipping the authors.
Ok thanks, so what is the New Covenant mentioned in Heb 8:9?
Just a layperson who is forbidden by God to follow blindly.Who are you to check their credibility?
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Sure, maybe later.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
I disagree with him. I actually think that the issue there was persecution.
Grace.
What I mean is what sources/criteria are you using to deny or verify their credibility?
What would be your evidence for giving a later date?
Ok so, Heb 8:9 is about God's people falling short, and a New Covenant of Grace is now the order of the day. What verse from the Torah is Paul quoting?
At the minute none whatsoever, as we don't know who they were. They could have been paid writers from the Roman Empire for all we know.
Repox
Truth Seeker
Were they really honest?
We can never be sure what their characters were like. The Pagan Church that hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh tells us, the Disciples were persecuted and most were 'killed' for their beliefs.
In Matthew 3:11 John speaking of Jesus pbuh says, "I indeed baptize you with water to repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
In Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."
Clearly Jesus pbuh is letting his followers know they will face difficult times, the baptism of fire indicates martyrdom. In particular, he points out this would happen to John and James Zebedee in Mark 10:35-39. This is a future Prophecy and we all know the Church tells us, Emperor Nero Cesar wanted to be worshipped as God incarnate, (a popular theme of the era) so sought to make an example of the Apostle John, (the Apostle earmarked for martyrdom). He had him put into a cauldron of boiling oil and of course John survived. The Emperor wanting sole adoration from the people, let him walk away free of charge, so he could go onto write his memoirs in old age in perfect Greek, recalling word for word conversations that happened some 60 Years earlier :/
They considered bearing false witness a sin against God. That is the only evidence I have. What makes you think they were not?