Did Jesus exist?

[Quagmire]

eyewitness accounts

That's what the Gospels are claimed to be by many.

and proper documentation..........

Such as....?

i know, i know. next you will argue that by my criteria there is no historiacl proof for pretty much anything before the 18th century or so..... and you would be correct.

Then why would I have to argue?

there is no HARD proof that anything happened the way people say it did. the only difference is that historical figures, such as, say pontius pilate or cesar, never claimed any supernatural powers.

Neither, as far as we know, did Jesus.

and therefore even if there is no hard evidence of their specific actions, or even their very existence. i have no trouble believing that yes, they probably did exist, and yes, they probably acted in such and such manner as described by historians.

Josephus doesn't make any claims about any supernatural powers in his references to Jesus.

now, beowulf, the dragon, santaclaus, rudolph the red nosed buffalo, and simba the purple dotted lion on the other hand, even if some historians recorded their existence i will not believe.

Good. Glad we got all that out of the way.

same applies to supernatural jesus

This isn't a thread about supernatural Jesus, it's a thread about historical Jesus.

who walked on water and raised the dead....... if jesus was just a regular carpenter however without any supernatural powers, then yes, i woud have no trouble believing josephus and tacitus, although i wouldnt care either way, and neither would you...

Supposedly Daniel Boone killed a full grown bear with his bare hands, which is pretty unlikely.

It's claimed that George Washington once threw a silver dollar a full mile across the Potomac River, which is humanly impossible.

Davey Crocket is said to have been so charismatic that he could smile at a raccoon and make it fall spellbound out of it's tree. Probably a bit of an exaggeration there.

So should we disregard everything else history has to say about these guys and just assume they never existed?

its the supernatural element that is at the heart of this discussion.

It appears that, as usual, it's the supernatural element that's in the way of this discussion.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Perhaps reading what "history" is would help. You've got it precisely backwards.

The other writings that you mentioned have some (however small) historical value because they betray the culture and language of a certain time. There is historical content in poetry, art, and etc.

But history can't inquire supernatural elements, so they are dismissed because an historical event must have an historical cause - that is, the natural. There is no supernatural subject.

on this forum yes, the supernatural does matter. the only reason the historicity of jesus is such as hotly debated topic is because of the supernatural claims that accompany it. if we were just talking about some poor carpenter way back in the day, no one would care.

 

[fallingblood]

eyewitness accounts and proper documentation.......... i know, i know. next you will argue that by my criteria there is no historiacl proof for pretty much anything before the 18th century or so..... and you would be correct. there is no HARD proof that anything happened the way people say it did. the only difference is that historical figures, such as, say pontius pilate or cesar, never claimed any supernatural powers. and therefore even if there is no hard evidence of their specific actions, or even their very existence. i have no trouble believing that yes, they probably did exist, and yes, they probably acted in such and such manner as described by historians.

now, beowulf, the dragon, santaclaus, rudolph the red nosed buffalo, and simba the purple dotted lion on the other hand, even if some historians recorded their existence i will not believe. same applies to supernatural jesus who walked on water and raised the dead....... if jesus was just a regular carpenter however without any supernatural powers, then yes, i woud have no trouble believing josephus and tacitus, although i wouldnt care either way, and neither would you... its the supernatural element that is at the heart of this discussion.

So then Augustus Caesar, who's father was a god, who's mother got pregnant from miraculously, while sleeping and a snake slithered by her. The same man who was said to be able to silence animals. The same man, who while still a baby, was found on a turret of the mansion, facing the son (even though he was put to sleep in his crib). The man who was worshipped as a god, and said to ascend to heaven. So Augustus, being said to have been supernatural, didn't exist?

Or, we can do the same thing we do for Augustus, strip away the supernatural, and find a historical figure. And yes, people would still care. It's called the quest for the historical Jesus. So no, the supernatural element is not at the heart of this discussion.

 

[Super Universe]

Just to clarify, Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible. Maybe you were thinking of The Book of Mormon.

Yep, sorry. Kept drawing a blank on the "Book of Mormon" name.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Supposedly Daniel Boone killed a full grown bear with his bare hands, which is pretty unlikely.

Oh c'mon! Next you'll say that Davy Crockett didn't really kill "him a bear, when he was only three." Right.

 

[jamesmorrow]

My god you are entertaining. :biglaugh:

as are you. and might i add. obviously upset because you know the facts are stacked against you. jesus died before the historian who claims he lived was even born. end of story.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

well there it is. You believe in historical jesus, not biblical jesus.

Actually, he's looking for the biblical Jesus in historical sources.

Without reading any of the sources, of course.

In that case it's like believing in Spiderman but not the Incredible Hulk. And refusing to read any comics.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

as are you. and might i add. obviously upset because you know the facts are stacked against you. jesus died before the historian who claims he lived was even born. end of story.

Dear lord!

I adore this.

 

[fallingblood]

Supposedly Daniel Boone killed a full grown bear with his bare hands, which is pretty unlikely.

It's claimed that George Washington once threw a silver dollar a full mile across the Potomac River, which is humanly impossible.

Davey Crocket is said to have been so charismatic that he could smile at a raccoon and make it fall spellbound out of it's tree. Probably a bit of an exaggeration there.

So should we disregard everything else history has to say about these guys and just assume they never existed?
.

Challenge accepted. Now just to find a bear, silver dollar, and raccoon.

 

[fallingblood]

on this forum yes, the supernatural does matter. the only reason the historicity of jesus is such as hotly debated topic is because of the supernatural claims that accompany it. if we were just talking about some poor carpenter way back in the day, no one would care.

Well now you've burst my bubble twice tonight. And all of this time I thought I was just talking about some poor peasant preacher man. Maybe I will have more luck killing me a bear.

 

[Quagmire]

Oh c'mon! Next you'll say that Davy Crockett didn't really kill "him a bear, when he was only three." Right.

Well, we have that one from his own hand so I don't see how we can deny it. Can't get much more contemporary than that.

 

[Quagmire]

Challenge accepted. Now just to find a bear, silver dollar, and raccoon.

And somebody who was born at exactly the same moment that you were to record it all, FB. that's very important.

 

[outhouse]

Actually, he's looking for the biblical Jesus in historical sources.

ya I caught that



Hard for some to understand that mythical people wrote mythically, and my heaven of course a mythical story would never ever grow after its original story was told after oral tradition

 

[angellous_evangellous]

as are you. and might i add. obviously upset because you know the facts are stacked against you. jesus died before the historian who claims he lived was even born. end of story.

I'm not upset at all. Mostly because your misinterpretation of the "facts" are spammed all over the internet. I've seen it all before, and it's just as lame now as it was the first hundred thousand times I heard it.

Now I may seem upset - I am offended by stupidity - but you put a certain sophistication on it that it's entertaining.

I mean you've managed to claim superior reasoning powers just after you couldn't even count to four. That's hilarious.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Dear lord!

I adore this.

sweet jesus and mother mary!

i adore it even more. in fact, i adore it so much i will murder it with hugs and kisses.


do such posts serve any sort of purpose angellous???

 

[angellous_evangellous]

on this forum yes, the supernatural does matter. the only reason the historicity of jesus is such as hotly debated topic is because of the supernatural claims that accompany it. if we were just talking about some poor carpenter way back in the day, no one would care.

Come on. You are either ignoring what people are plainly telling you or you're having a difficult time with comprehension.

Just say it like a mantra - the historical Jesus is not the supernatural, mythical Jesus.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

sweet jesus and mother mary!

i adore it even more. in fact, i adore it so much i will murder it with hugs and kisses.


do such posts serve any sort of purpose angellous???

I value my entertainment. It's a serious compliment when I say that you're entertaining.

It's a compliment to the post, be cause it has no other redeeming quality.

 

[jamesmorrow]

I'm not upset at all. Mostly because your misinterpretation of the "facts" are spammed all over the internet. I've seen it all before, and it's just as lame now as it was the first hundred thousand times I heard it.

Now I may seem upset - I am offended by stupidity - but you put a certain sophistication on it that it's entertaining.

I mean you've managed to claim superior reasoning powers just after you couldn't even count to four. That's hilarious.

ah, i see, you are the type of christian who drowns in pride. not very christ like. i will pray for you.

 

[outhouse]

ah, i see, you are the type of christian who drowns in pride. not very christ like. i will pray for you.

you dont know him to make any judgement


your making the same mistake with him as you are with historical jesus. Its all just ignorance. :slap:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

ah, i see, you are the type of christian who drowns in pride. not very christ like. i will pray for you.

I'm honest.

Believe me, I would let you know if your posts weren't entertaining, because the posts would be terrifyingly aggravating.

And because you're senselessly attacking my Christianity, please feel free to insult me on the thread that I created for this purpose.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/101506-philosophy-angellous-background.html