did jesus exist?

[Willamena]

HUGE difference if we find artifacts or ancient writings or images well then that is in fact proof of an existence. I am quite aware of how cultures would use word of mouth to hand down stories and legends and "history". However we would find actual evidence to support the history it's telling. By the time jesus was "alive", we were more than aware for a need to record or history as it is happening. There were over 50 historians in and around the mediteranean when jesus was "alive", and not once did a historian once mention such a great man. yet they had historians and even forms of news papers. There is no evidence what so ever when it comes to Jesus. Also the first written scripture was AT LEAST 70 years after Jesus's supposed death, and some believe even longer.....

At the time, he probably wasn't "a great man," he was just a guy, a teacher and philosopher. Who's this "we" who were aware of the need to record the life and times of one more guy?

 

[waitasec]

Of course they did. However, they were among the few that could read and write. And really, they had no interest in some Jewish peasant, one of many who were claiming to be Messiah in an area that didn't really matter.
Here's the problem. We have little written about 1st century Judaism at all. We have very little written about Jewish religious leaders. Why should we expect anyone to write about a figure you really made no impact during his time? He was just one more religious leader running around. And really, we have little written about people like him. Yet, we accept the others lived, such as John the Baptist.

The difference with Jesus is that his followers later made an impact. I propose this to be because they believed that he issued in the Kingdom of God.

The key point is quite simple, Jesus was a Jewish peasant and thus did not matter during that time. We have what is expected of him. And really, for others like Jesus, who we don't have information until after the fact, we don't even consider that they may not have existed.

well according to the bible jesus was very famous and he made a huge impact with all those miracles jesus performed in front of the masses

 

[Willamena]

it is the "authority" certain believers claim to have...
because jesus did "in fact" exist that gives them the authority to have this stance on any given issue (same sex marriage, for example, which of course has nothing to do with what jesus ever supposedly said, but you cannot deny the bibles claim of jesus' existence is the reasoning behind it)
if the knowledge that the jesus character never did "in fact" exist, then their whole entire religion would fail.

Didn't Jesus himself, in the stories, speak against authority in his philosophy?

 

[waitasec]

However you care to word it, it goes without saying.

yes it does go without saying
and if people need to be told how to treat other people then they got a problem

 

[fallingblood]

HUGE difference if we find artifacts or ancient writings or images well then that is in fact proof of an existence. I am quite aware of how cultures would use word of mouth to hand down stories and legends and "history". However we would find actual evidence to support the history it's telling. By the time jesus was "alive", we were more than aware for a need to record or history as it is happening. There were over 50 historians in and around the mediteranean when jesus was "alive", and not once did a historian once mention such a great man. yet they had historians and even forms of news papers. There is no evidence what so ever when it comes to Jesus. Also the first written scripture was AT LEAST 70 years after Jesus's supposed death, and some believe even longer.....

You stated that history is to be written down when it happens. Now you're making an excuse to fit your beliefs.

And again, we are talking 20 years before the first mention of Jesus. Not 70 as you keep claiming. More so, the Gospels were, the first one, was about 40 years. You need to do more research.

Making exceptions for other instances don't work. That is what you are doing here.

 

[MW0082]

At the time, he probably wasn't "a great man," he was just a guy, a teacher and philosopher. Who's this "we" who were aware of the need to record the life and times of one more guy?

Thats not what the bible says sorry. It claims he was pretty famous, and performed miracles for many to see. These miracles are astonishing even to us this day. There were historians and people recording things everywhere. Yet not one mention of this famous prophet who performed miracles, including raising from the dead and ascending to heaven. Come on, it has fishy written all over it. Not to mention it was written a MINIMUM of 70 years AFTER HIS DEATH.... fishy fishy fishy

 

[Eliot Wild]

Hey! Welcome to the religion of Just Me.

Thing is, with a non-literal interpretation, what that Baptist Preacher says is true and it doesn't matter if Jesus existed.

But maybe that's just me.

I've never met a Baptist Preacher who was willing to accept such a non-literal interpretation. Everyone of 'em I've met demanded it was mandatory for salvation that a person accept Jesus's existence and His divinity on faith. I'm not saying such preachers don't exist; I've just never met one.

However, I do like the idea of the 'Religion of Just Me'. I would let you join, but hey, it's just me.

 

[fallingblood]

suetonius was tiberius contemporary as were others
harry houdini had eye witness accounts to his existence,
i still don't follow...

Reread what I stated. I stated that much. I also stated that we add to their history much after the fact. So reread what I stated and it should be clear.

 

[waitasec]

At the time, he probably wasn't "a great man," he was just a guy, a teacher and philosopher. Who's this "we" who were aware of the need to record the life and times of one more guy?

but the bible claims he was famous and not just this simple carpenter...

 

[MW0082]

You stated that history is to be written down when it happens. Now you're making an excuse to fit your beliefs.

And again, we are talking 20 years before the first mention of Jesus. Not 70 as you keep claiming. More so, the Gospels were, the first one, was about 40 years. You need to do more research.

Making exceptions for other instances don't work. That is what you are doing here.

I am not making exceptions, I am stating fact. If there are stories and evidence to support it, then that can be history.

Jesus there are stories and NO EVIDENCE, thats fishy and suspicous.

And I am sorry YOUR the one who needs to do research, it was a minimum of 70 years after his death that his story was written,..... com on

 

[fallingblood]

another thought would be
the more eye witnesses there are, the more credible it is...
in this case the bible is the only "eye witness account" not verified by non biblical accounts, due to jesus being famous as the bible claims...

Maybe Jesus wasn't famous? It really isn't that hard.

 

[Willamena]

Thats not what the bible says sorry. It claims he was pretty famous, and performed miracles for many to see. These miracles are astonishing even to us this day.

These miracles are being performed by each of us every day. I sometimes find it astonishing, too.

There were historians and people recording things everywhere. Yet not one mention of this famous prophet who performed miracles, including raising from the dead and ascending to heaven. Come on, it has fishy written all over it. Not to mention it was written a MINIMUM of 70 years AFTER HIS DEATH.... fishy fishy fishy

Perhaps no one had a pen handy.

 

[MW0082]

These miracles are being performed by each of us every day. I sometimes find it astonishing, too.

Example? and by miracles do you mean such as parting seas, healing the sick with your hands not meds, walking on water, turning water into wine and of course dying and coming back to life....

Perhaps no one had a pen handy.

Perhaps it never happened either.....

 

[fallingblood]

A peasent who performed miracles for all to see, including DYING AND ASCENDING TO HEAVEN for all to see. I think everyone would want THAT recorded...lol

Do you know how many Jewish peasants were around during that time that performed miracles? I'm assuming not. It wasn't worth mentioning.

Also, the dying and resurrection were most likely created after the fact. Again, do some actual research. The problem you have is that you assume that if Jesus existed then everything written about him must be factual. Yet, I doubt you would do that with a figure such as Augustus. Meaning you have a double standard.

 

[Willamena]

Perhaps it never happened either.....

And perhaps the bit about having a pen handy is as make-believe as the bit about historians being present.

 

[waitasec]

Reread what I stated. I stated that much. I also stated that we add to their history much after the fact. So reread what I stated and it should be clear.

but you yourself said
"this is why we use multiple sources to get more accurate pictures of ideas."

the bible is the only source, it's just interesting to me that there are no other eye witness accounts if jesus was as famous as the bible claims him to have been...

 

[Sunstone]

I think Jesus existed but that a whole lot of legends grew up around him. About the only way to distinguish legend from fact is to use the razor of deciding what's natural and what's supernatural and then discard the supernatural as legend. But even that's not likely to remove all the non-factual stories attributed to him.

 

[fallingblood]

I am not making exceptions, I am stating fact. If there are stories and evidence to support it, then that can be history.

Jesus there are stories and NO EVIDENCE, thats fishy and suspicous.

And I am sorry YOUR the one who needs to do research, it was a minimum of 70 years after his death that his story was written,..... com on

When was the Gospel of Mark written? About 70 C.E. Jesus died around 30 C.E. 70 minus 30 equals 40. Meaning 40 years. Yes, you need to do some research.

As for no evidence, we have the Gospels, the Epistles of Paul, and Josephus. More than enough evidence.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe Jesus wasn't famous? It really isn't that hard.

here a some passages that make this claim...
Matt 14:1
Matt:14:5
Matt: 4:25
Luke 12:1
Luke 5:15
Matt 21:15-23, 26:3
Luke 19:47, 23:13

 

[MW0082]

And perhaps the bit about having a pen handy is as make-believe as the bit about historians being present.

Nope in Jesus's supposed lifetime there were over 50, many of whom famous......:yes: