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did jesus exist?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by waitasec, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    (if there is another thread about this subject, please point the way)

    i found this interesting site and if anyone is interested here is the link;

    Did Jesus exist?


    here are some points of interest, at least for me….

    non christian sources
    josephus flavius
    "Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay."

    pliny the younger
    "(born: 62 C.E.) His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of range as an eyewitness account."

    tacitus
    "the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts."

    Suetinius
    "a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E., mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay."


    apologist christians use “after-the-event writings as evidence for the event itself” which “violate the rules of historiography.”

    since the gospels claim jesus was famous:
    "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judea, and from beyond Jordan." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumerable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..."

    “Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!”

    “Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).”
     
  2. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    47,115
    Yes.

    [.... here we go again ...]
     
  3. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    whaaat?
    :D
     
  4. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    This dead horse has been beaten ad nauseum.
     
  5. Twig pentagram

    Twig pentagram High Priest

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    1,832
    I don't know.
     
  6. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    sorry, i missed that action...
    :p
     
  7. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    47,115
  8. Willamena

    Willamena Just be there, doing that

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    32,033
    It's just a shame that people feel compelled to equate "Jesus is a myth" with "Jesus didn't exist."
     
    Wannabe Yogi likes this.
  9. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
  10. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    i think the real issue here isn't if jesus actually existed, it's the notion we have of this figure called jesus...
     
  11. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    47,115
    Well you're about to be eaten alive because of your usage of the above sources.

    All of these references can be refused by a high standard of evidence - except for one of the Josephus quotes.
     
  12. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    so get out your salt and pepper...;)

    i only used one sourse
    it's an interesting subject, i will check out those links
     
  13. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    47,115
    haha - each quote is from a different person. You used one secondary source, and many primary sources (Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, etc).
     
  14. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Just to deal with this. It doesn't violate the rules of historiography. Much of history is written after the fact. We see this daily with newspapers.

    If you look at a history book, people are writing about events after the fact. That's simply history.
     
  15. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    all i meant was the link i provided was my source
    and the premise is; there are no non biblical eye witness accounts of jesus
    regardless of how famous jesus was according to the gospels.
     
  16. Eliot Wild

    Eliot Wild Irreverent Agnostic Jerk

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    Maybe it's just me, but I have always thought the teachings attributed to Jesus were more important than whether or not he actually existed. And that certainly is not intended to be dismissive of the OP. Obviously, the question of Jesus's existence is an important one, at least to those who claim it is necessary to believe in Jesus's divinity to be 'saved'.

    I was raised in a Southern Baptist household and every baptist preacher I've ever met has declared that a person cannot attain salvation and enter the Kingdom of Heaven if, among other things, they don't believe and declare that Jesus was the son of God who lived as a man and died for the explicit purpose of sacrificial atonement for the sins of mankind. (I'm paraphrasing some of those preachers, by the way)

    I honestly don't know, and really I don't care. I hope that doesn't offend anyone. But my thinking is this, I would rather live in a manner worthy of Jesus's teachings and still remain ignorant of the truth about his existence and his divinity, than I would to know for certain he did or didn't exist and behave in a way that would shame him. But, hey, that's just me.
     
  17. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    i think this point back to the fact there are no non biblical eye witnesses to the famous jesus in addition to that for example,


    "Then we have a particular astronomical event that would have attracted the attention of anyone interested in the "heavens." According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Yet not a single mention of such a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone, including the astronomers and astrologers, anywhere in the world, including Pliny the Elder and Seneca who both recorded eclipses from other dates."

    "Nor does a single contemporary person write about the earthquake described in Matthew 27:51-54 where the earth shook, rocks ripped apart (rent), and graves opened."
     
  18. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    21,014
    absolutely,
    there are some teachings that are beautiful, i agree.
    it's just an interesting topic
     
  19. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    but there were eye witnesses to the source.
    just because we heard of george washington doesn't make him real, there were eye witness accounts of his existence
     
  20. Eliot Wild

    Eliot Wild Irreverent Agnostic Jerk

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    Yeah, I think some people miss the point when they place more value on Jesus's supposed divinity and the whole being saved thing, rather than trying to practice what Jesus preached. Peace, love, mercy, tolerance and that whole 'treat people the way you'd want to be treated' thing . . . to me, that's what's really important.

    Of course, you do realize, that you and I are going straight to hell for missing the important part of Jesus's message? I Just thought I'd let you know, waitasec, that's what some folks believe about us. Ehhh, but you probably already knew that. If not, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But, at least we'll be there together . . . Whew, let's party.
     
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