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Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Montalban, May 10, 2005.

  1. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    I know that many Muslims and others, such as the Jehovahs Witness claim that He never did. Odd then that some Jews wanted to kill Him; charging Him with the 'blasphemy' of claiming to be the Messiah. They at least understood what He was saying.

    Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
    14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
    15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
    16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
    17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
     
  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    No Jesus did not claim to be God he claimed to be Gods son. the following scriptures are Jesus himself speaking.

    "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God(john 3;16-18)

    Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. (John 17;1-3)

    But when Jesus heard it he said: "This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it.(John 11;4)and martha believed what Jesus claimed to be

    she said to him(Jesus)Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world(john 11;27)

    also according to a number of bible versions(john 9;35-37)saysthe following

    Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: "Are you putting faith in the Son of man?" The [man] answered: "And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?" Jesus said to him: "You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.

    at no time did Jesus claim to be God, to be the same as his Father. The most he ever claimed for himself was that he was the Son of God; in a unique sense, it is true, but not God himself, only the Son of God.—John 10:36.

     
  3. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Obviously you believe that the Jews got the wrong charge on Jesus?

    They are one
    I John 5:7
    “There are those that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one”

    Philippians 2:5-7 "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing."

    Jesus said (in John 10:38)
    But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    They are of one accord
    John 5:21
    For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
    Jesus is equal to God
    Colossians 1:19
    “For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him”

    Jesus has the power and wisdom of God
    1 Cor 1:24
    “...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

    Jesus is eternal like God
    Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Jesus Himself commanded that we do things in the name of the three
    Matthew 28:19
    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

    In this passage, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are said to share one name (notice that the term “name” is singular, not plural), and that name is almost certainly Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Bible. We know this because the name Yahweh is applied to both the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

    Peter tells us, “David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a stool for your feet.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:34–36). Here God is “the Lord” who speaks to “my Lord,” Jesus. When one looks at the Old Testament quotation, one finds, “Yahweh says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’” (Ps. 110:1); so here the Father is called Yahweh.

    In Philippians 2:10–11, we read: “[A]t the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is a reference to Isaiah 45:18–24, which tells us: “I, Yahweh, speak the truth . . . I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn. . . . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. ‘Only in Yahweh,’ it shall be said of me, ‘are righteousness and strength.’ “ Here Paul applies the prophecy of every knee bending and every tongue confessing to Jesus, resulting in the prophecy that they will “confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh.” The stress on Christ as God is also picked up by the early Church Fathers (e.g., Ignatius, below).

    Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh (“I AM,” in English translation). In John 8:58, when questioned about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” His audience understood exactly who he was claiming to be. “So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple” (John 8:59).

    With the personal name of God, Yahweh, being applied to both the Father and the Son, it is almost certainly applied to the Spirit, and thus to all three members of the Trinity.


    The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
    http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    There is no reason to believe the Passion narrative to be anything other than an anti-Judaic diatribe fabricated by an increasingly gentile sect.
     
  5. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    The writings of the early church confirm this...

    Jesus and God are united
    Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians
    &#8220;CHAPTER 7
    7:1 Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, [being united with Him],&#8221;
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

    Ignatius...
    Epistle to the Magnesians
    &#8220;CHAPTER 7
    7:1 Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, [being united with Him],&#8221;
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

    The unity of them is continually repeated...
    He opens his Epistle to the Philadelphians
    &#8220;Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, to the church of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, which is in Philadelphia of Asia...&#8221;
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-lightfoot.html

    Again in his opening address to his Epistle the Romans
    &#8220;Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our God; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans, being worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy in purity, and having the presidency of love, walking in the law of Christ and bearing the Father's name; which church also I salute in the name

    of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father; unto them that in flesh and spirit are united unto His every commandment, being filled with the grace of God without wavering, and filtered clear from every foreign stain; abundant greeting in Jesus Christ our God in blamelessness.&#8221;
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

    God and Jesus, Jesus and God. He says Jesus is the only Son of God, no mention that Satan is a co-creation equal to Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, He is also God.

    Epistle to the Ephesians
    CHAPTER 5
    5:1 For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity.
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html

    That is, unity of the community, of the church, of Christ with God.
    But also 'three' comes up so many times,
    Further in his Epistle to the Ephesians
    CHAPTER 19
    19:1 And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord -- three mysteries to be cried aloud -- the which were wrought in the silence of God.
    Ibid

    &#8220;The episkopoi's immediate subordinates were the `presbyteroi' and the `diakonoi' who together with him constituted the higher Kleroi, a trinity if you will: the Father (episkopos), Son (diakonos) and spirit-filled apostolic council (presbyteroi)&#8221;
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html

    As stated earlier, the organisation of the Church reflected the triune nature of God. One Church, three offices of clergy.
    This reflects the passages in Scripture that say that Jesus was with the fullness of God, that is, they are united, and they are equal.
    1 Cor 1 "24
    &#8220;...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.&#8221;

    Thus the Didache* (written after 50 AD but before 120AD; and again, well before some of the books of the Bible were written) states...
    7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptise.
    7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptise {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lightfoot.html
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The writings of the earloy church were increasingly antisemitic as they promulgated their replacement theology while demonizing the Jews.
     
  7. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Which of the writings I quoted do this? If none of them, then what relevence does it have to this thread? (actually if any of them do this, what's this got to do with the topic?)
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What you quote is irrelevant. We both know that the 'anti-Judaizing' theme dominated the post Temple period.

    The relevance of my remarks rests on your reliance upon the authenticity of the anti-Judaic pericopes of the Gospels. You assume authenticity as a matter of faith. It is a baseless assumption.
     
  9. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    It is to the debate you want to start; anti-semitism.
    So, you are in need of another thread, unless you can bring to bear what 'anti-Judaizing' has to do with claims of Jesus.
    I asked you which were anti-Jewish. You said it was irrelevant, now you seem to say that I've relied on anti-Jewish pericopes (extracts). So have I or haven't I? Yes! Which ones? Irrelevant!

    So, I just 'have'. And it is not a part of this thread, unless you bring in some context other than just stating that somwhere sometime something I've used is anti-Jewish!
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Pay attention: "Odd then that some Jews wanted to kill Him; charging Him with the 'blasphemy' of claiming to be the Messiah."
     
  11. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    The claim of a Jew killing another Jew is not anti-semetic, not even if it's a work of fiction. You want a debate on anti-semetism. This is not that debate. You claim that it is anti-semetic. I repeat, this is not that thread.

    Jesus claimed to be God. That is the debate. In your own words 'pay attention'.
     
  12. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Getting back to the topic, a good site I found is
    http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/ot1/trinityot.html

    Another states... The ancient Semitic name for God may also contain some hint of plurality in the Godhead. Elohim is the plural of el &#8220;God.&#8221; Again, is this merely a grammatical peculiarity or a cryptic reference to the Trinity to be fully revealed in the New Testament? Isaiah 6:3, with the seraphim calling &#8220;Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts,&#8221; has also been taken as an indication of the triuneness of God. And it is interesting that the seraphim have three sets of wings with which to veil themselves.
    http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/1998-01-02/trinity.html
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Nor did I claim it to be so.

    You predicated your opening remarks on an assumption about the authenticity of the Passion narrative. I'm simply suggesting this to be baseless and naive.
     
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  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It doesn't "contain some hint of plurality"; it is plural, and reflects Western Semitic belief in the Divine Council. Nascent Judaism was henotheist, not monotheistic.
     
  15. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    If you claim it is baseless, then you are saying my assumptions of it being non-fiction are wrong; therefore it is fiction. That is what you are saying. You say it again right now...
    You also claimed something was anti-semetic. So, you're saying that my 'passion narative' is fictionless fiction, and somwhere anti-semetic, but its irrelevant when I ask you which bits. Somehow this ties into the topic at hand.
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good grief! Again, pay attention ...
    I never said that 'the claim of a Jew killing another Jew is ... anti-semetic'. I said it was anti-Judaic. As for the rest, do you deny (or are you simply ignorant of) early church efforts against the so-called 'Judaizers'?

    The Passion narrative, written/redacted decades after the event by apologists who were eyewitnesses to absolutely nothing, is so absurd that only the most unquestioning faith justifies a belief in their historicity.
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    regarding philippians 2;5-7 lets look at surounding verses.

    Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became OBEDIENTas far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also GOD EXALTED HIM to a superior position and kindly GAVE HIM the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY of God the Father.
    No it seems to me that God is greater than Jesus. jesus was obedient, and God exalted jesus, and it was to the glory of God . Jesus was the image of God not God himself.
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation(colossians 1;15)

    God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs(hebrews 1;1-4)

    YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am(john 14; 28)

     
  19. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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  20. Lloyd

    Lloyd Member

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    The divinity of Christ could never be boiled down to a simple yes or no. It's quite complicated, really.

    In John 10:30 Jesus says that "the Father and I are one," so....more or less yes. But throughout John Jesus describes his relationship with the Father more as being interpenetration between two distinct persons. Early in Luke, when Jesus announces his coming in Nazareth in Synagogue he quotes Isaiah 61:1, "the spirit of the Lord is on me." Does that mean he's God? Not really. That just means that the God is present within him in a special way.

    I'm Baha'i, so this question really interests me. Baha'u'llah's answer to this question was that there were two aspects of Jesus Christ. The first is that he is human and perfectly enslaved to God. Hence, Paul's Kenosis hymn in Phillipians "But he emptied himself taking the form of a slave." (Ph 2:7). The second aspect of Jesus Christ was the spirit of God that rested upon him and rested upon all the other manifestations of God (Zoroaster, Muhammed, Buddha, Baha'u'llah, etc.). This spirit of God is not the essence of God descending into the physical plane but rather the reflection by Jesus of the divine attributes e.g. compassion, wisdom, sovereignty, etc.

    In this way the Baha'i perspective on the divinity of Christ is that of Paul in Hebrews 1:3 " He is the reflection of God's glory and bears the impress of God's own being." Elsewhere, in Colossians 1:15 Paul says that "He is the image of the unseen God." This raises an interesting issue. The image of a thing cannot be the thing itself, but at the same time you don't say that they are entirely different. When you see yourself in the mirror, you know that the image is not you, but you know that because the image more or less looks like you that it is in fact you. The image is not the essence of the thing, but rather a clear reflection of the attributes of that thing. That's pretty much what the Baha'i faith teaches about the divinity of Christ and the other major profits. If you couldn't tell, I'm totally into my religion.

    Anyhoo, there's all kinds of passages from the New Testament that touch on either the humanity or the divinity of Christ. These though, are not mutually exclusive, which when I think about it is what just about every reputable Christian theologian says anyway. That's my two cents
     
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