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Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You really need to pay greater attention. Where have I said "that Jesus Christ did not exist". What I said, and what is true, is that your claim of "a ton of evidence that the historical jesus died on a cross" iss baseless nonsense. And it remains pretentious nonsense irrespective of whether or not some historical Yeshu'a is at the core of NT legend. Rather than pathetic attempts to shift the burden of proof, consider dealing with the evidence honestly.
     
  2. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    I agree with you Duet. it is a bit silly to make claims like that and not be able to show at least a 'kilo' of evidence...
     
  3. sindbad5

    sindbad5 Active Member

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    jesus didn't die, this's my beliefs.

    In the An-Nisaa chapter in Quran, Allah Says:

    "The people of the Scripture (Jews) ask you to cause a book to descend upon them from heaven. Indeed they asked Mûsa (Moses) for even greater than that, when they said: "Show us Allâh in public," but they were struck with thunder clap and lightning for their wickedness. Then they worshipped the calf even after clear proofs, vidences, and signs had come to them. (Even) so We forgave them. And We gave Mûsa (Moses) a clear proof of authority" [4:153]

    "And for their covenant, We raised over them the Mount and (on the other occasion) We said: "Enter the gate prostrating (or bowing) with humility;" and We commanded them: "Transgress not (by doing worldly works on) the Sabbath (Saturday)." And We took from them a firm covenant" [4:154]

    "Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: "Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)" - nay, Allâh has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not buta little." [4:155]

    "And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary >Ç > ) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);" [4:156]

    "And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) >>>]:" [4:157]

    "But Allâh raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he >> is in the heavens). And Allâh is Ever AllPowerful, AllWise." [4:158]

    how can i - as a muslim- prove that Jesus didn't die?
    simply because i belive that Quran is the words of Allah, and Allah doesn't tell lies,
    it's "if-then" logic:
    if quran is from allah then quran have no lies.

    as for you -non-muslims- i have no historical or anthropological proofs that jesus died or not.
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Sinbad5,
    I suppose I can see your point; but then, in the same vein, I can say if the Holy Bible is from God, then the Bible can have no lies...............:)
     
  5. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

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    I concur, and NO, it doesn't change anything for me.
    Amen!:162:

    For the Sundays of Advent leading up to Christmas, our church decorates our treee with Chrismons. Among the decorations we have different crosses from different cultures, and reading this thread reminds me that the shape of the symbol pales in significance to what it represents-the life and ministries of Jesus Christ.
     
  6. sindbad5

    sindbad5 Active Member

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    first of all, one of the principles of islam is to believe in the previous prophits and books.
    ofcourse bible and torah have no lies and/or displaced words at the time of the prophets:
    Allah Says in Quran:
    "Verily, We did send down the Taurat (Torah) [to Musa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurat (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allah's Laws). " [5:44]

    and says:
    "Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it? " [2:75]

    this explain why these number of bible and torah exist.
    in the other hand, Quran didn't changed despite hundredes of years.

    i -as a muslim, believe in the original torah and bible revealed to Moses and Jesus,
    and believe in the quran exists in my hand right now.

    Islam is the continuation of the religion of Allah, the religion of all prophets and thier followers, starting from Adam and eve, Ibraheem ( Abraham), Ismael, Israel, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, ...etc

    one day it called Judiasm, the next day chrestianity, and now it called Islam.
     
  7. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Hi there,

    sorry if i sound ignorant but I was wondering about some of the beliefs of Muslims. Is it true that the word Allah, is a tile, such as Lord or God, or do you believe it to be his personal name? Also, you say that the God of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, Jesus was Allah and that some of the bible is true. That being so, the Bible refers to the name of their God as being YHWH and not as Allah. What are your views on this? Thanks.
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That's an interesting question. Thanks.
     
  9. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Thank you for the thank you. Let's see what he says... :)
     
  10. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Relax guys. Deut, as I've mentioned before, the New Testament Gospels serve as the historical record and clearly depicts Christ's cruxifiction. If you do not believe it's validity, there not much I can help you with man! Clearly, historical evidence validating many works of antiquity from 1st century Palenstine have survived the test of time, but scripture has and is housed in musuems/libraries throughout Europe. :)
     
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  11. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    in acts it says "hanged on a tree" I don't think it really matters. trees come from wood, the thing christ was hanged on
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.​
    I hadn't seen that before....as you say, it makes little difference:confused:
     
  13. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Allah is the personal name of God. Consider this: Jesus prayed to God on the cross: "Aalee Aalee, lima shabaktani". The word Aalee in Hebrew is very close to Ilaahi in Arabic. They most have originated from the same language. They also refer to the same God.
     
  14. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    what I meant was, the exact substance of the cross is not important.
     
  15. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply.
    that's strange, as i'm thought that someone once told me that Allah was a tile and not a name...perhaps i will start a thread on the subject...

    That aside, i looked up that scripture in the KJV and it reads: Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    and the Contemporary English Version reads:
    Then about that time Jesus shouted, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" [a] which means, "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?"

    (to which the footnote says:
    Mark 15:34 Eloi. . . sabachthani: These words are in Aramaic, a language spoken in Palestine during the time of Jesus.)

    So we see here that Jesus was using the word 'God', and not the name of God, which he knew, that is YHWH.
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: "There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape."—Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.




    Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross.

     
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  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    That somehow negates the entire depiction of Jesus on the cross, which is an image I would have thought was one accepted by most Christian faiths - somehow, it seems to 'devalue' his death - although I don't really understand why I am thinking that way.............:(
     
  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    "The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256

     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    But that alters not the fact that people now believe Jesus did not die on the cross? - a great swipe of belief........... I think I will go on seeing Jesus the way I have for 50 odd years - even if it is fallacious.[​IMG]
     
  20. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes, many people do the same as you .
     
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