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Featured Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by whirlingmerc, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Prince Mthembu

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    Please check out the following sources if you can't trust in those I really suggest you make it your own research to find one which is satisfactory to you. I just wish that you don't base any fact on anyone's opinion but your own logic and judgement because without the resurrection I would right now denounce Jesus that He is not the Messiah

    A brief history of the Shroud of Turin
    PURSUING HISTORY: The Shroud of Turin: Real or Fake? - A look at past articles
    Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia
    The Shroud of Turin: Shroud of Turin News - November 2015
    Could ancient earthquake explain Shroud of Turin?
    The Origins of the Shroud of Turin, Part I
    Centuries-old debate over Shroud of Turin authenticity persists
    DNA tests open more Shroud of Turin mysteries


    tip: "Don't look for the living among the dead" Luke 24:5 - He is risen!
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry, but it was shown to be fake by a panel of scientists that studied it and dated it. The cloth is far too young to be anything but a 13th or 14th century work. That was shown to be the case by STURP.

    Tell me, why put your faith in a known hoax? It does not match the Bible description or a historical version of how bodes were wrapped. It was shown to be fake by a panel of scientists. I do not know of any Vatican approved investigation since then and since the members of STURP agreed that there would be no independent sampling or testing anything that supposedly came from a STURP member is worthless since the man went back on his own word. It is forgivable to be wrong in the sciences, but lying is death to one's career.
     
  3. Prince Mthembu

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    My faith isn't on the cloth but rather the proof it might contain to point out to the resurrection. If Jesus really rose from the dead then it's worthwhile to help unbelievers know that it's real but If not I wouldn't even bother and if you really checked the sites then you'll see that all are in agreement over the fact that the shroud remains mysterious to date because even those who say they can explain it really can't reproduce anything like it. And given the golden age of tech that we are in I really think it total stupidity for 1 to argue that 14th century can be considered a comparable for this generation to fail remaking what they claim is a fraud. *logically*.
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, but if it is a lie, and that is what it appears to be, it can only harm your faith.
     
  5. Prince Mthembu

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    Take my word for it my faith is fixed eternally and sealed in a Rock that'll never break but your intuition is the concern for my efforts. Imagine if you find out Jesus really died and rose again would you then convert?
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    How would you prove that he really died? And believing is one thing. Why would one worship Jesus?

    Lastly, what evidence would convince you that your beliefs were wrong?
     
  7. Prince Mthembu

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    History proves He died - Josephus for 1. His worship magnifies my being because I can't exist apart from Him therefore by so doing it's like I'm fixing/admiring/adorning my true self in the mirror(that's me personally I don't know about others). If there were no evidence that He walked the earth, DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, then my knowledge in God comes down trembling to misbelief. You on the other hand what then if you're proven wrong by your limited knowledge and to our vindication?
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, history only proves that some people believed n him. Josephus only states that people believed in him, not that he actually existed. There is no reliable evidence for his resurrection. And the evidence for his existence is rather poor.

    And once again, what evidence would convince you that your beliefs are wrong?
     
  9. Prince Mthembu

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    Sir all 3 contradictory Abrahamic beliefs contain His existence in some of their manuscript, there are many external sources apart from religion which has His history, even archaeologically is proven, to an extent that some labs still experiment and tests His blood - as I've told you make it your own research if you really care.

    And bring to my conviction that He never was, then I will proclaim to the whole world that God is a lie - that's how you can convince me but by logic(a failure) which can not even reduce global warming or worst yet feed/clothe a homeless stranger who is poverty stricken nothing can be solved to your gain because what you call a solution causes more problems as proven scientifically that every action results in an opposing reaction(the results of the Adamic curse)..
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Where does a Jewish text have any record of his existence? And I am sorry, but there is no such evidence that I know of archaeologically. And of course we all know that Adam was mythical. How can there be an "Adamic curse"?

    By the way, the burden of proof is not upon me. It is upon you. Shifting the burden of proof is what one does when what one believes in is not real.
     
  11. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    How can we be so certain, and why claim to be certain, what's wrong with not knowing what happened two thousand years ago?
     
  12. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    We can only be sure that if he existed he died. Whether or not he arose is a matter of belief- completely devoid of reliable proof.
     
  13. Prince Mthembu

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    Judaism's view of Jesus - Wikipedia

    If this doesn't convince you, I don't know. I have been supplying you with proofs which you debunk over speculation and you never even attempted to make an effort towards verifying the truth. And I never shifted the burden I just thought it would concern you if something was as heavy as a choice between eternal life or contempt for you to make your own research outside of our conversation.
     
  14. Prince Mthembu

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    The wrong in that is people perish for lack of knowledge(ignorance). Hosea 4:6.
     
  15. Prince Mthembu

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    So can you proof that He existed and died the way portrayed by biblical scripts? Because if you can then we have a start but if you can't then there was no purpose in publishing His existence to begin with.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That does not answer the question that I asked. Wikipedia is not a Jewish text.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Wow! You might be getting somewhere. You appear to realize that the evidence for Jesus even existing as a person is rather weak.
     
  18. Prince Mthembu

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    Lol! Come on, didn't you see references to the Talmud in that site as much as other reliable sources(including non-Jewish). I'm starting to think you look over all the exhibits I provide and head back at me with the same info you previously depended on to be convinced that all points I make aren't there. 1stly if you would've checked the Turin shroud articles I sent, you would now realise there's much more to that story than you've learnt about the dishonest and compromised scientist. Secondly you just replied to the wiki link without actually going through its details. We can't progress if you don't value my efforts --- please try only going through each one of those links thoroughly then draw a conclusion based on that information unless, of course, you deem all off the sources untrustworthy. Which would be impossible because all those don't relate, some not even with any Christ Church.
     
  19. Prince Mthembu

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    That would be like you realizing that you can breathe without air - My point these remarks is that he should be able to support his claims when his dealing with requirement of truth. My other concern though is - is evidence a prerequisite for(your) faith Mr Sub?
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I see that you cannot remember what you wrote. Earlier you posted this:

    "Sir all 3 contradictory Abrahamic beliefs contain His existence in some of their manuscript,"

    That is why I asked where Jesus was mentioned in a Jewish text. He was not. He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies which is why early Christian writers had to invent their own prophecies. For example the Virgin Birth prophecy. That failed on several levels. First in the original if did not say "virgin" it was based upon a Greek mistranslation". Second it was not a prophecy, but history. An event that had already happened. And it failed since Jesus was never known as Emmanuel. He was only called that by Christians that went "oops" more than a hundred years after the fact.
     
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