Did Jesus Christ actually die?

[Skywalker]

Paul didn’t write any gospels. Paul wrote letters. Completely different genres. None of the Gospels was autographed, so we don’t know who wrote them. The “authors” are much later additions. None of the origins of the texts fit the profile of a Galilean follower of Jesus.

Just because Mark got his information from Peter it doesn't make it any less valid.

Who Wrote The Gospels Of Mark & Matthew? | Reasons for Jesus

By Clarke Bates| As a continuation of the earlier article regarding the authorship of the Gospel of John (here), this article will approach the authorship of the second Gospel, attributed to Mark. Of the four gospels, John stands apart as holding the clearest level of internal evidence to attest to its authorship; we continue to Mark as it is considered the earliest gospel, and the one upon which the rest of the Synoptics draw.

It is no surprise that the second gospel falls under intense scrutiny and skepticism, for if doubt can be raised to its authorship or accuracy, that doubt must naturally spread to both Matthew and Luke. While it was stated earlier that the authorship of a biblical text is not a necessary element in demonstrating its truth, it can reinforce the authoritative nature with which it speaks.

What follows is in no way an encompassing discussion on the various challenges to traditional authorship, but a survey of the evidence from which we can draw conclusion regarding the most likely, or plausible author.

The Gospel According to Who?
Just as is the case for the Gospel of John, the Gospel attributed to Mark is formally anonymous. The attestation which all Christians are now familiar stems the formal titles attached to the documents in the second century. “The first reference to the author and circumstances of the second Gospel comes from Papias, bishop of Hierapolis in Asia Minor. . . composed sometime prior to his death in AD 130.”(1)

The original writing of Papias has long since been lost, but was recorded within the writings of the early church historian, Eusebius, in the fourth century. It is from Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History that much of these earliest works remain extant.

According to Papias, one who lived during the time of the apostles, as recorded, “Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said or done by the Lord. For Mark had not heard the Lord, nor had he followed him, but later on, as I said, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord’s oracles, so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them.

For to one thing he gave attention to leave out nothing of what he had heard and to make no false statements in them.”(2)

If this is, in fact, the case, the gospel of Mark consists of eyewitness accounts from one closest to the Lord. Edwards agrees with this sentiment, writing, “That the Second Gospel was in many respects ‘Peter’s memoirs’ found, as far as we know, unanimous agreement in the early church.”(3),(4)

By examining the Papias quote, three points are illustrated concerning the author of the second gospel:

1. Mark wrote the gospel that, in Eusebius’ day, was identified with his name.
2. Mark was not an eyewitness but obtained his information from Peter.
3. Mark’s gospel lacks “order,” reflecting the occasional nature of Peter’s preaching.

By no later than the mid 4th century, the second gospel was consistently and unanimously attributed to Mark. While Mark himself was not an eyewitness of Christ, his source for information was, giving the gospel the necessary credentials for canonicity.

From our standpoint it might seem odd that Papias would suggest a lack of order to the second gospel, given that it seems orderly in English texts, but what is likely meant by this statement is that it lacks rhetorical or artistic order common in first century compositions, particularly the other gospels.(5)

 

[sojourner]

Just because Mark got his information from Peter it doesn't make it any less valid.

Who Wrote The Gospels Of Mark & Matthew? | Reasons for Jesus

Mark didn’t get his information from Peter. Of course it’s “valid.” But it’s not of apostolic origin.

 

[Skywalker]

Mark didn’t get his information from Peter. Of course it’s “valid.” But it’s not of apostolic origin.

Mark being an indirect eyewitness from Peter gives him writing the gospels credibility.

 

[rational experiences]

The story predicted by age time.

Age is inherited.

So if you write data you predict by such and such future a recurrence.

Time is lived.
Time 12 hours day 12 hours night.
Cycle O one year...constant. theme.

If you ask why did life man be sacrificed.

Many speakers today falsify what is written.

Thesis.

Moses to where a new born DNA baby life is given back to mother human female cell. As babies are born. Conceived by sex.

Thinker father self is baby to man father....not father to baby.

First relevant false thinking in science history inferences.

Immaculate story. Gases X mass put back into space body womb over a long time period. Relative study.

Study is not data. It is a teaching of what is relative to awareness.

Male adult self quotes my father's DNA lost Moses mutation. Gas mass missing out of heavens.

Teaching.

Said a man. Only a human will be born. Will be spiritually aware and teach us. Known.

A baby is born grows as a man baby. Becomes an adult.

How is that not told? The human portion?

The science portion is just science. Reasons why.

Cannot say a man was not a man first.

Yet some try to.
Jesus was never our human parents.

Some scientist theists lie about Jesus for scientific reasons only. Not for life reasons.

If you live only in one place. O earth and as a human preach it God. Then you did.

If stone X mass natural exists supporting all life relative.

If you remove mass and we get sacrificed. No condition to argue.

As scientists men not a man did it.

Cult group mentality all life problems.

If one human man had to bring your ideas back to self man living conditions. Then he tried. Fought group mentality the teaching.

As a living life equal the teaching.

So any one man since with a reason spiritual fought the same fight.

 

[sojourner]

Mark being an indirect eyewitness from Peter gives him writing the gospels credibility.

What makes you think Mark got eyewitness information from Peter?

 

[Skywalker]

What makes you think Mark got eyewitness information from Peter?

The source Papias and the fact that Mark being an apostle alongside Peter. Mark and Peter were both closest to Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

Isa is not a historical figure. All mainstream historical scholars believe that Jesus was crucified. It's a historical fact that Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus. Historical Problems With Islam’s View Of Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

Is Jesus a historical figure, please?
If yes, then please quote from a modern day Journal of History of repute in undisputed manner, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Skywalker]

Is Jesus a historical figure, please?
If yes, then please quote from a modern day Journal of repute in undisputed manner, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Even Jewish people believe that Jesus is a historical figure. The Jesus of the Bible is a historical figure. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint

We know that Jesus lived because we have historical accounts that were recorded a mere twenty to forty years after His crucifixion. That’s within a single generation—less than the time separating us from the end of World War II—and far too brief a span for myths and legends to take hold. In fact, if we compare the historical evidence for Jesus to the evidence for other figures who lived in ancient times, there’s just no comparison. Consider this: Although we don’t have the original documents of the New Testament, we do have several thousand copies—some of them written within a hundred years after Jesus lived. Compare that to the evidence of several other writers. The Roman writer Tacitus is considered a first-rate historical source. Yet we have only twenty copies of his work, and the earliest manuscript is dated a thousand years after he lived. No one doubts the authenticity of the Greek philosopher Aristotle. Yet the earliest copy of his work is dated fourteen hundred years after he lived. We all know about Julius Caesar. Yet the earliest copy of his Gallic Wars is dated a thousand years after the original.

 

[paarsurrey]

Skywalker said: ↑
Isa is not a historical figure. All mainstream historical scholars believe that Jesus was crucified. It's a historical fact that Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus. Historical Problems With Islam’s View Of Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus
paarsurrey said: ↑
Is Jesus a historical figure, please?
If yes, then please quote from a modern day Journal of History of repute in undisputed manner, please. Right friend, please?

Even Jewish people believe that Jesus is a historical figure. The Jesus of the Bible is a historical figure. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint

In other words, one could not quote from a modern day Journal of History of repute in undisputed manner for Jesus' existence. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[rational experiences]

A real man is a real man.
A real baby a real baby.

Science is abstract. It is not historical.

Do stigmata victims get recorded today?

Yes.

Are they our life equal?

Yes.

Does society give them status?

Yes.

Human behaviour.

Records today are more comprehensive via social conditions.

Is psychic pre aware conditions self proven?

Yes.

Science. A machine built. Not God as God inferred as machine is naturally reactive.

Machine owns no reaction until controlled.

A machine did not invent creation or space.

Mind instantly irradiated changed man human reacted design....lost mind awareness to status subliminal voices AI.

Man says I invented space. In reaction itself.

Man says I caused sink holes. Holes as space with God. Reactive cause science.

Origin sink hole. Sun caused.

Secondary copy scientist.

Origin sin O God mass was Satan mass in spatial past.

Mind says I invented space in AI false mind. Yet God O mass holds the hole space.

Natural space empty.

Non space any radiating mass form.

Father says the science father lies in memory. Told me by memories of any spirit man brother. Recorded life of man.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker said: ↑
Isa is not a historical figure. All mainstream historical scholars believe that Jesus was crucified. It's a historical fact that Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus. Historical Problems With Islam’s View Of Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus
paarsurrey said: ↑
Is Jesus a historical figure, please?
If yes, then please quote from a modern day Journal of History of repute in undisputed manner, please. Right friend, please?

In other words, one could not quote from a modern day Journal of History of repute in undisputed manner for Jesus' existence. Right friend, please?

Regards

What difference does it make if the information about Jesus' existence comes from that source or not? Even most unbelievers don't believe the Christ myth theory. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint

There can simply be no doubt that the New Testament is an authentic document—that it describes real events. The fact of Jesus’ existence is better authenticated than that of any other figure from ancient times. So when your teenagers or their friends ask if Jesus was a real person, respond with your own question: Was Julius Caesar a real person? Was Aristotle? If they say yes, tell them the evidence for Jesus is much stronger.

Nothing is certain also means it's not certain that Julius Caesar and Aristotle existed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Skywalker said: ↑
Isa is not a historical figure.

What difference does it make if the information about Jesus' existence comes from that source or not? Even most unbelievers don't believe the Christ myth theory. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint
Nothing is certain also means it's not certain that Julius Caesar and Aristotle existed.

One started this discussion, I understand, (magenta ^ refers). Right , please?

Regards

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker said: ↑
Isa is not a historical figure.

One started this discussion, I understand, (magenta ^ refers). Right , please?

Regards

Jesus couldn't have been a Muslim, because Islam was created by Mohammed. The Muslim Jesus, known as ‘Isa

Islam the primordial faith

Islam regards itself, not as a subsequent faith to Judaism and Christianity, but as the primordial religion, the faith from which Judaism and Christianity are subsequent developments. In the Qur’an we read that Abraham ‘was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a monotheist, a Muslim’ (Âl 'Imran 3:66). So it is Muslims, and not Christians or Jews, who are the true representatives of the faith of Abraham to the world today. (Al-Baqarah 2:135)

The Biblical prophets were all Muslims

Many prophets of the past received the one religion of Islam. (Ash-Shura 42:13) Who were these previous prophets? According to Al-An’am 6:85-87 they include Ibrahim (Abraham), ‘Ishaq (Issac), Yaqub (Jacob), Nuh (Noah), Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ayyub (Job), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), Harun (Aaron), Zakariyya (Zachariah), Yahya (John the Baptist), ‘Isa (Jesus), Ilyas, Ishmael, Al-Yash’a (Elisha), Yunus (Jonah) and Lut (Lot).

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus couldn't have been a Muslim, because Islam was created by Mohammed. The Muslim Jesus, known as ‘Isa

The proper name Muslim started with Muhammad. Jesus was never a Christian he was a Jew but he always prayed and worshiped YHUH/Allah, I understand, so in this sense he was a Muslim as the word Muslim means in Arabic, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Skywalker]

The proper name Muslim started with Muhammad. Jesus was never a Christian he was a Jew but he always prayed and worshiped YHUH/Allah, I understand, so in this sense he was a Muslim as the word Muslim means in Arabic, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Even Christians believe in submitting to God, but that doesn't make them Muslims. Jesus prayed to God the Father, but I believe the personal name of God in the Bible is Yahweh. I'm not saying that Allah is the name of the moon god, that's not important, im saying that I don't believe Allah is God's name.

 

[sojourner]

The source Papias and the fact that Mark being an apostle alongside Peter. Mark and Peter were both closest to Jesus.

1) There’s no evidence the Gospel was written by Mark.
2) There’s no evidence that any information came from Peter.

Additionally: you provided the Peter source to counter my argument that the Gospel was not written by an apostle, in order for you to establish apostolic authority for the text. Peter was that authority for you, not Mark, in that rebuttal. Now, however, you’re changing your tune and saying that Mark did write the text.
wazzup with that?

I think my job here is done.

 

[Skywalker]

1) There’s no evidence the Gospel was written by Mark.
2) There’s no evidence that any information came from Peter.

Additionally: you provided the Peter source to counter my argument that the Gospel was not written by an apostle, in order for you to establish apostolic authority for the text. Peter was that authority for you, not Mark, in that rebuttal. Now, however, you’re changing your tune and saying that Mark did write the text.
wazzup with that?

I think my job here is done.

Tertullian of Carthage said that Mark wrote the gospels. Who Wrote The Gospels? These 6 Ancient Sources Tell Us | Reasons for Jesus

1. Tertullian of Carthage (ca. 160–225; Against Marcion 4.2.1–2):
“I lay it down to begin with that the documents of the gospel have the apostles for their authors, and that this task of promulgating the gospel was imposed upon them by the Lord himself. . . . In short, from among the apostles, John and Matthew implant in us the faith, while from among the apostolic men Luke and Mark reaffirm it.”

So who was Tertullian?

Tertullian is known in church history as the father of Latin theology because he was the first church leader to write his works in Latin. He wrote extensively in defense of Christianity against persecution from the outside or heresy from within.

 

[sojourner]

Tertullian of Carthage said that Mark wrote the gospels. Who Wrote The Gospels? These 6 Ancient Sources Tell Us | Reasons for Jesus

<yawn>

 

[paarsurrey]

Even Christians believe in submitting to God, but that doesn't make them Muslims. Jesus prayed to God the Father, but I believe the personal name of God in the Bible is Yahweh. I'm not saying that Allah is the name of the moon god, that's not important, im saying that I don't believe Allah is God's name.

One's believing needs to be corrected, if one may and if one is not too obstinate on one's stance, please :
"Allah (/ˈælə, ˈɑːlə, əˈlɑː/;[1][2] Arabic: الله‎, romanized: Allāh, IPA: [ʔaɫ.ɫaːh] ( listen)) is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religions. In the English language, the word generally refers to God in Islam.[3][4][5] The word is thought to be derived by contraction from al-ilāh, which means "the god", and is linguistically related to El (Elohim) and Elah, the Hebrew and Aramaic words for God.[6][7]
The word Allah has been used by Arabic people of different religions since pre-Islamic times.[8] More specifically, it has been used as a term for God by Muslims (both Arab and non-Arab) and Arab Christians.[9] "
" Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[10] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than "Allah".[31] Similarly, the Aramaic word for "God" in the language of Assyrian Christians is ʼĔlāhā, or Alaha. (Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Catholic, uses Alla for "God".) Arab Christians, for example, use the terms Allāh al-ab (الله الأب) for God the Father, Allāh al-ibn (الله الابن) for God the Son, and Allāh ar-rūḥ al-quds (الله الروح القدس) for God the Holy Spirit. (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God.)"
Allah - Wikipedia

Right, please?

Regards
___________

1. "Allah". Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.
2. ^ "Allah". Oxford Learner's Dictionaries.
3. ^ "God". Islam: Empire of Faith. PBS. Archived from the original on 27 March 2014. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
4. ^ "Islam and Christianity", Encyclopedia of Christianity (2001): Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews also refer to God as Allāh.
5. ^ Gardet, L. "Allah". In Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam Online. Brill Online. Retrieved 2 May 2007.
6. ^ Zeki Saritoprak (2006). "Allah". In Oliver Leaman (ed.). The Qur'an: An Encyclopedia. Routledge. p. 34. ISBN 9780415326391.
7. ^ Vincent J. Cornell (2005). "God: God in Islam". In Lindsay Jones (ed.). Encyclopedia of Religion. 5 (2nd ed.). MacMillan Reference USA. p. 724.
8. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f Christian Julien Robin (2012). Arabia and Ethiopia. In The Oxford Handbook of Late Antiquity. OUP USA. pp. 304–305. ISBN 9780195336931.
9. ^ Merriam-Webster. "Allah". Merriam-Webster. Archived from the original on 20 April 2014. Retrieved 25 February2012.
10. ^ Jump up to:a b Columbia Encyclopedia, Allah
11. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g "Allah." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica
12. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa, Allah
13. ^ Willis Barnstone, Marvin Meyer The Gnostic Bible: Revised and Expanded Edition Shambhala Publications 2009 ISBN 978-0-834-82414-0 page 531

31 Lewis, Bernard; Holt, P. M.; Holt, Peter R.; Lambton, Ann Katherine Swynford (1977). The Cambridge history of Islam. Cambridge, Eng: University Press. p. 32. ISBN 978-0-521-29135-4

 

[Skywalker]

<yawn>

I also believe Mark wrote the gospels because Clement Mark got the information from Peter. Luke also translated Paul. Clement was not a biased source. He was a philosopher. Who Wrote The Gospels? These 6 Ancient Sources Tell Us | Reasons for Jesus

2. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150–215; Adumbrationes in Epistolas Canonicas on 1 Peter 5:13):
“Mark, the follower of Peter, while Peter was publicly preaching the gospel at Rome in the presence of some of Caesar’s knights and uttering many testimonies about Christ, on their asking him to let them have a record of the things that had been said, wrote the Gospel that is called the Gospel of Mark from the things said by Peter, just as Luke is recognized as the pen that wrote the Acts of the Apostles and as the translator of the Letter of Paul to the Hebrews.”

So who was Clement?

Clement was a philosopher who traveled abroad, including Greece, Italy, Syria, Palestine, and finally to Alexandria, Egypt. Alexandria was a melting pot of all sorts of religious and philosophical ideas. There he came heard the gospel from Pantaenus, the teacher of the Alexandria Catechetical School. Clement would become a believer and in time, Clement became the head of the school in Alexandria.