Did Jesus Christ actually die?

[lukethethird]

Why would there have to be a different standard for the two in this case, in terms of historical accuracy?

There are history books and there are religious texts, they are written for different purposes, should be obvious.

 

[sojourner]

They all lived with Jesus. They are more credible than Gnostic sources

There’s simply no indication that the apostles wrote the Gospels. They are too,late to have been written by contemporaries of Jesus.

The context of that verse is different from Christ consciousness. Does “Be Still & Know That I Am God” Mean To Meditate? | Reasons for Jesus

I don’t think so. And yes, “be still...” points to contemplative prayer. Your little fundigelical “apologetic” web site is highly biased, not very scholarly, and is not an authority on theological matters.

They traveled with Jesus in the three years that he preached.

Wishful thinking.

Jesus is not a copy of pagan gods

There are too many parallels for it to not be so. The kicker is that the earliest extant piece of Christian art, taken from an ancient baptismal, is a stone bas-relief scene of Jesus. It exactly copies an earlier bas-relief of a scene of Augustus. Only the faces are changed.

They were not illiterate according to all sources

Not so. Palestine was an oral culture, according to anthropological scholars.

Just because many of the ancient Hebrew people were illiterate doesn't mean that the disciples were. Were Jesus’ Disciples Illiterate Peasants? | Reasons for Jesus

You need to find a better source than this one. The reasons it gives for its position are not well thought out and grounded in what we know of the period.

 

[Skywalker]

There’s simply no indication that the apostles wrote the Gospels. They are too,late to have been written by contemporaries of Jesus.


I don’t think so. And yes, “be still...” points to contemplative prayer. Your little fundigelical “apologetic” web site is highly biased, not very scholarly, and is not an authority on theological matters.


Wishful thinking.


There are too many parallels for it to not be so. The kicker is that the earliest extant piece of Christian art, taken from an ancient baptismal, is a stone bas-relief scene of Jesus. It exactly copies an earlier bas-relief of a scene of Augustus. Only the faces are changed.


Not so. Palestine was an oral culture, according to anthropological scholars.


You need to find a better source than this one. The reasons it gives for its position are not well thought out and grounded in what we know of the period.

Be still is not about contemplative prayer or other self glorifying experiences. Everyone is biased to one degree or another, and since nobody knows everything, nobody is exactly an authority.

 

[Skywalker]

There are history books and there are religious texts, they are written for different purposes, should be obvious.

The New Testament matches the standards of accuracy that exist for history books.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

It doesn't alter the fifteen or more denials by Jesus that he's God and the denials by Paul and others that he's God, many of which I've quoted to you. Nor does it alter the fact that he never once claims to be God.

But you say he's a liar and a deceiver, that you know better, he's really God whether he likes it or not.

So tell us what else he lied about, No more shilly-shally please ─ spell it out.

Jesus didn't deny that he was God, he said it in a subtle way. He didn't want to sound vain and saying things directly would have taken the meaning out of what he was doing. Did Jesus Claim To Be God? | Reasons for Jesus

Did Jesus Claim To Be God?
By
Mikel Del Rosario
-
January 9, 2017
29163


By Mikel Del Rosario| What would you say if someone asked you, “Did Jesus say He was God?” In this post, I’ll give you a few talking points that you can use to give a thoughtful response to a question like this. But first, let me tell you a little story.

One day, I was at this family reunion at my in-laws’ place when a relative decided to engage me in a religious conversation. Now, you have to understand that I usually don’t go looking for these kinds of discussions at parties. What I was looking for was more potato chips. Why? So I could try some of this homemade blue cheese dip–a secret family recipe!

So anyway, this woman cornered me and started talking about how Jesus never claimed to be God. In fact, she grabbed my Bible off the table, held it up as a visual aid, and said,

“According to this, Jesus never claimed to be God.”

As a World Religions professor at a couple of universities, I hear this “Did Jesus say he was God” challenge a lot. The popular concept is that Jesus of Nazareth never said He was divine or never claimed to be the Son of God. But what about this? Did Jesus really say He was God? What does the historical evidence actually show?

Did Jesus really say He was God?
That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” ( John 10:33 ).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses ( Exodus 3:14 )– to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him:

“BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.” ( JOHN 8:58 )

This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system.

So, he wasn’t saying something like “I’m some other, generic god” like he was advocating polytheism. Not at all. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was being much more specific.

Jesus was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

 

[sojourner]

Be still is not about contemplative prayer or other self glorifying experiences. Everyone is biased to one degree or another, and since nobody knows everything, nobody is exactly an authority.

If you think that contemplative prayer and meditation are in any way “self glorifying experiences,” you don’t understand either one, so your comments and opinions don’t count for a whole lot in a debate. One needs to know the subject before an effective debate can be mounted.

And yes, there are recognized authorities in any discipline.

 

[sojourner]

The New Testament matches the standards of accuracy that exist for history books.

The two can’t be compared, since they’re different genres.

 

[Skywalker]

The two can’t be compared, since they’re different genres.

I'm only comparing them in terms of standards of accuracy.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus didn't deny that he was God

That is an outright falsehood.

You yourself have seen the quotes attributed to Jesus in direct speech.

Jesus denies again and again that he's God. He never once claims to be God.

You yourself have seen what Paul and other NT writers wrote.

They too say Jesus is NOT God.

You admit you know the Trinity doctrine didn't exist till the 4th century.

And anyway,, as I've pointed out, even the churches admit that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent.

Have you no respect for truth, have you no respect for yourself?

 

[Skywalker]

That is an outright falsehood.

You yourself have seen the quotes attributed to Jesus in direct speech.

Jesus denies again and again that he's God. He never once claims to be God.

You yourself have seen what Paul and other NT writers wrote.

They too say Jesus is NOT God.

You admit you know the Trinity doctrine didn't exist till the 4th century.

And anyway,, as I've pointed out, even the churches admit that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent.

Have you no respect for truth, have you no respect for yourself?

Jesus said indirectly that he was God. He didn't want to be confused with God the Father, which is why he wasn't more direct.

Did Jesus Claim To Be God? | Reasons for Jesus

So did Jesus say He was God? Not in the way you might have expected him to. But as Dr. Michael Kruger says, “We should not confuse the directness of a claim with the existence of a claim.” The historical evidence shows that Jesus actually claimed to be the God of Israel.

Indeed, Jesus didn’t have to say the words “I am God,” in order to claim to be divine. But why is this a problem? Look, I don’t have to say the exact words, “I am married” to indicate that I’m married. I can tell you, “I’m her husband,” or “this is my wife,” or “it’s our 16th wedding anniversary.”

 

[lukethethird]

The New Testament matches the standards of accuracy that exist for history books.

In your dreams.

 

[Skywalker]

In your dreams.

The Scriptures are a different text from history books but it doesn't make a difference because the same standards of accuracy exist for each.

 

[Skywalker]

In your dreams.

How does it not? None of the authors had any reason to lie. They went to jail and were persecuted for their faith in Jesus.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus said indirectly that he was God.

No. Nowhere does he say he's God, directly or indirectly.

You really are determined to paint yourself into the Jesus The Relentless Liar and Deceiver corner, aren't you.

 

[sojourner]

The Scriptures are a different text from history books but it doesn't make a difference because the same standards of accuracy exist for each.

But they do not exhibit the same level of accuracy.

 

[Skywalker]

But they do not exhibit the same level of accuracy.

The apostles all but one went to jail and were persecuted for their faith. They were accurate sources because they had no reason to lie about seeing Jesus risen from the dead.

 

[sojourner]

The apostles all but one went to jail and were persecuted for their faith. They were accurate sources because they had no reason to lie about seeing Jesus risen from the dead.

The apostles didn’t write the Gospels.

 

[Skywalker]

The apostles didn’t write the Gospels.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul wrote the Gospels.

 

[sojourner]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul wrote the Gospels.

Paul didn’t write any gospels. Paul wrote letters. Completely different genres. None of the Gospels was autographed, so we don’t know who wrote them. The “authors” are much later additions. None of the origins of the texts fit the profile of a Galilean follower of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul wrote the Gospels.

Additionally, Paul’s writings are, by and large, older than the Gospels — and Paul didn’t know Jesus.