1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Did Jesus Christ actually die?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Dec 15, 2020.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Because the people of Israel were not following God.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    That article refers to the Messiah as Yeshua and the son of Joseph. I don't think the prophecies about Jesus being the Messiah are vague. I think the belief of there being two Messiahs is more consistent with the belief of the Messiah being primarily a political figure.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    The context of Isaiah 53 is not about Israel walking away from God.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    The belief that some of the prophecies weren't fulfilled was based upon traditions of wanting to be freed from the Romans.
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Actually it is:

    Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia).

    It has been argued[3] that the "servant" represents the nation of Israel, which would bear excessive iniquities, pogroms, blood libels, anti-judaism, antisemitism and continue to suffer without cause (Isaiah 52:4) on behalf of others (Isaiah 53:7,11–12). Early on, the servant of the Lord is promised to prosper and "be very high". The following evaluation of the Servant by the "many nations, kings", and "we" Isaiah 52:15 is quite negative, though, and bridges over to their self-accusation and repentance after verse 4 ("our"). Then, the Servant is vindicated by God, "because he bared his soul unto death". On the other hand, it is argued that the "servant" in this song might be an individual or messianic[4]

    Taking the Bible too literally results in failed arguments.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Excuses excuses. Now you are claiming that prophecy is not reliable. Most prophecies are interlocked so that if one fails they all fail.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    Israel is talked about in the masculine and in songs countries are referred to in the feminine.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    You have to do better than that.
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    What prophecy did I say was not reliable? The prophecies that were meant to be fulfilled at the second coming of Jesus are interpreted by some people to refer to two Messiahs because Jesus didn't deliver the Jews from the Romans. The prophecies aren't like Nostradamus. Job believed that the Messiah was an advocate and a Redeemer, not a political figure.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Moving the goalposts on the prophecies amounts to the same thing.

    Do you understand yet how excessively vague prophecies are failed prophecies?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    What is vague about the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus other than they can be interpreted to refer to two Messiahs?
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Which ones are you talking about? Did you mean Jesus's own prophecy that failed terribly?
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    Are you talking about the verse that sounded like Jesus said that a certain generation would be alive at his second coming? Jesus was talking about the transfiguration.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    "Sounded like"? It was what he claimed. If you want the specifics it was:

    “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    In the next verse he was talking about the transfiguration because that happens later in the gospel of Matthew.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    You might want to check. That was the end of that chapter. The next chapter is about the transfiguration, but that was not a fulfillment of that prophecy. Angels did not repay every man according to their deeds, a very important part of the prophecy.
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    There are different interpretations of that verse in the New Testament. Some people think Jesus will come and there will be a Millennium kingdom some people think Jesus will come and judge and the world will be over. The parables of Jesus are cryptic but the details of the Messianic prophecies are simple.

    The transfiguration and the prophecy about angels repaying every man according to their deeds are two different prophecies.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Of course there are different interpretations. That is the first step taken to try to save a failed prophecy. Just as they try to defend Ezekiel's failed Tyre prophecy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus was talking about different topics in that same chapter. That's why I believe that the prophecy at the end was about the transfiguration and the verses in the middle at the second coming were a different topic. At the start of that chapter Jesus was talking about taking up your cross and following him.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    38,136
    Ratings:
    +22,544
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Where do you think that he was talking about the transfiguration? The quote that I gave you was the end of that chapter so I am confused on where you are getting this claim from.
     
Loading...