1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus abolish the law?

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Natural Submission, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. Natural Submission

    Natural Submission Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    280
    Ratings:
    +43
    Could the Christians of this site please provide from the verses of the Bible why you claim Jesus DID abolish the law outside of the context of crucifixtion. Thank you.
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Abolish or fulfill?

    Jesus fulfilled the law and so in reality "abolished" it.

    The Old Testament was a perfect contract. Just like a mortgage is a contract, it had certain obligations to be met. Jesus met those obligations and completely fulfilled ALL of the requirements. So just like a mortgage, it became "useless" except as an historical piece. The book of Romans REALLY brings this home, especially chapters 2-10. Galations 3,4 & 5 are a good study as well.

    Galations 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  3. wellmanj

    wellmanj New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +0
    Interesting. I agree Jesus "fulfilled" the requirements of the law, but to say He "abolished" the law itself is something totally different.
     
  4. Lostinthisworld

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +3
    Are you saying the law is paid in full ?
    So we can say, do and act like swine and still get into heaven as long as we have faith.
    If so, wont this world go into a downward sprial ?
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    These verse's may help.

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:22-26

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

    So yes when you stand befor God if you are a real christian then your righteousness comes from God through Jesus because your sins are no longer counted against you, they have been paid for the law is satisfied.
    Having said that though, just because you one day say yeah why not, Jesus can be my "insurance", dosnt make you a Christian, God knows our heart if you truly do belive then you will put your trust in Jesus and the rest of your life should be lived out of thankfulness to God.

    So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. Colossians 2:6-7

    If you truly understand and belive that you have been saved from hell thanks to what Jesus willingly went through then as you grow in Christ you too will hate sin more and more. Afterall if you are a true christian you recognise that its your own sin that made it nessasary for Jesus to go through what he did.
    If someone calls themselves a christian but lives the rest of their lives without change (saying, doing and acting like swine as you put it) then i doubt they have really grabbed hold of the gospel in its intirety. They have an unrepentent heart and havnt been born again.
    They dont care about sin even though they say they follow Jesus.

    Like i said God knows our hearts and if we are truly greatful, he knows what we belive and worship deep down.
    "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." Matthew 15:7-9
     
  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    28,657
    Ratings:
    +15,121
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Why, then, is the Old Testament included in the Holy Bible? Is it just a rather long historical preface?
     
  7. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +559
    I was taught that the OT was included because it was a history of God's interaction with his people but that we were to following the teachings of Christ. However, I have always been a bit confused about this since the following verses say differently:

    Matthew 5:17-19
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Why does He say "till all be fulfilled" when, by His own words, He *is* the fulfillment?
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Melody...

    read the first verse again. :D (Excellent passage for this, BTW).

    Lostinthisworld...

    No, -I- am not saying it. The scriptures are saying this.

    The Mosaical law has been completely fulfilled. It was carved on tablets of stone.

    The law of grace has since replaced it. It is carved on tablets of human hearts.

    II COrinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

    As for sin:

    Romans 6: 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

    The Mosaical law dealt with mere actions. The Law of Grace deals with the root of the problem: the heart.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    It reveals God and history.
    The Old Testament actually blends very well with the new for eg, in the old it shows how only unblemished animals sacrifice were offered to the Lord as a foreshadow of what was to come, Jesus the unblemished lamb of God.
    Its full of prophecy about the coming of Jesus, one of my favs is

    Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:4-6

    Written well befor Jesus was born.

    Its also full of wisdom, books such as proverbs are quite interesting.
    Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death. Prov 11:4
     
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    28,657
    Ratings:
    +15,121
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    So we can ignore the OT prohibitions on diet, homosexuality, depicture, &c?
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,667
    Ratings:
    +2,656
    Thank you NetDoc; that is an answer I can understand. Well, there has to be a first....!:)
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Seyorni,

    One of the central doctrines to Judaism is the concept of "Clean/Unclean". Much of the law centered around that. Take a peak at what Peter went through here:

    Acts 10:9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." 16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. 17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate.

    While the meaning is ultra clear to us reading the passage, the concept was SO radical, that even after this miraculous vision, Peter is STILL unsure of what he heard. I love Peter! He can be dense as a brick sometimes and yet his heart just wants to follow his Lord! BTW, if you were to translate his name to a more contemporary one it would be "Rock Johnson". It fits! :D



     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    28,657
    Ratings:
    +15,121
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    So were the lizards made Kosher or not? I can understand Peter's confusion in 10:17.

    Should we alter our diet and conduct based on the seizure/hallucination of a 2,000+ year old person whose report fortuitously found its way into the Bible?

    If I were to derive truths from seizures they'd probably increase my meds....
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Kosher has to do with "clean/unclean" and is part of the Mosaical Law.

    The Law of Grace does not concern itself with "Kosher".

    Please... you asked and I answered. I certainly don't need you to insult me or the scriptures in order to proseletyse me to your way of thinking. Thanks in advance.
     
  15. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    The Law is authoritative, but the issue is its interpretation and application. Without going into too much detail (I haven't the time the next couple of days), the regulations in the Law are given for our spiritual edification, but they must be interpreted and applied. Not all of it applies in every culture. Some of it changes with the circumstances.

    On the most obvious level, there would be nothing immoral about lighting a fire on a Sabbath day in Alaska during the winter or fixing one's heater if it went out. Some things simply have to be done, and adhering to it as a rulebook can be fatal in some areas. The example from the Gospels is an ox dropped in a well.

    Others are completely obselete. Why is it wrong to mix two types of fabric or sow two types of seed in a field? It's because at the time of the writing, the fertility cults used that as part of their religious practices. To keep Israelite worship separate, the Law forbids it.

    Other practices have simply changed their symbolism. Circumcision, for instance, was altered in the Church, but it still applies. Prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit and God worked externally upon people, and the sign was external. After Pentecost, the Church has the capacity to give the indwelling Spirit. With this change, the circumcision changed from circumcision of the foreskin to circumcision of the heart. The sign changed with the situation, and baptism is now circumcision for Christians (that's part of the reason conservative groups baptize infants).

    The food laws similarly changed. They are guides to aide us in spiritual growth. When Christianity spread beyond the Jewish boundries, they became a hinderance and lost ground. The theology for this was laid down by the Lord, who asserted that it wasn't what went into a man that caused him to be unclean but what proceeded from him. The dietary laws of the Old Testament were in place to help with the spiritual life of the people, and the Church has developed similar ascetic practices to aid us in the world, but these adapt to the culture and situation, and even there, they are rather pastoral.

    In other places, it's strictly a matter of interpretation. The Law says "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but this wasn't intended as license. It was a limitation on vengeance. Christ in speaking on it taught turn the other cheek. He tended to teach that much of the Law was given on account of the "hardness" of the people's hearts. Matthew 5-7 contains several such tidbits as this.

    This is a Christian approach to the Law. For us, it is still authoritative, but it's a schoolmaster. It gives lessons and guidance but isn't the equivilent of a rule book. It's more of a guide. So, the Law is still important to Christians. It is essential, but it's also an issue of interpretation.
     
  16. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,755
    Ratings:
    +258
    Pardon me...jumping in here with a question...Didn't Jesus still say we were to obey the laws of the two commandments Matt.20:37-40 and didn't Jesus speak about the law in respect to how you treat your mom and dad, and about stealing and coveting??? and the rest of the last of the commandments? Doesn't that say we are to still obey the commandments so that others can know us by our fruits?
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Yes. It's a matter of interpretation as I outlined above. Those groups that want to ignore the Law or relegate it to a status of unimportance ignore the plain teachings of Christ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    No... Jesus fulfilled the law. It no longer binds Christians. BTW, I can't find Matthew 20:37-40!!! :D
     
  19. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Well, I don't have a Mt. 20.37-40, but I do have 5.17ff. ;):

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingcom of heaven.

    He then proceeds to teach on its interpretation. He's very clear, though, that any person who teaches people to break the commandments is least in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Law is a spiritual guide and schoolmaster. It has not been done away with. We only have a new interpretation under Christ, who has brought to us the Law of Grace.
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    He is also clear that he came to what??? To FULFILL the law.

    Consider Paul's words:

    Galations 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

    The Judaizers were trying to do just this... re-introduce the law into Christianity. The old law of DEATH has been replaced by the new law of LIFE. Jesus paid the entire note in full and we are the reicipients of his Grace.
     
Loading...