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Did God command having statues and images in church?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Bryan X, Oct 8, 2004.

  1. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    According to Catholic.com, they said:

    ' People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

    David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

    Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." '
    _________________________________________________________________

    Inputs please.
     
  2. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    I don't mind statues in a church as long as they are not visible the entire time during the mass. Sometimes, when I have visited beautiful places of worship with god, stone, and lovely statues, it can distract me from the mass and my mind wanders observing the things in the church! I just prefer going to simple churches with not too much gold or statues to distract me!
     
  3. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    I think that the key is that they are not representations of God. Mythical figures like cherubs and what not are ok, as they are not 'graven imagaes'. You do not pray to a decorative gargoyle or what have you like you would pray to a statue ment to represent a god, like in a temple devoted to say Osiris.

    So the way I always saw it, decoration = good, veneration = bad.

    wa:do
     
  4. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    I do not think that GOD needed or wanted this particular brand of decorative worship that most churches display. In fact when you think about the cost to most of these "artifacts" the money could probably have been spent on something more worthwhile.
     
  5. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    What do you guys think of the Catholic's belief that God said to make statues? They even cited a verse for it. What about the command of not making any carved images? Surely the Bible isn't contradicting itself. So the Catholics have to explain this now that they have used a verse to support their belief of having statues/images.
     
  6. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Actually that first quote is from the book of Exodus which is in the Torah or the Old Testament. Therefore the Jews and all of the Christians would be following this command. I don't think that the Bible would be considered as contradicting itself in this instence however. They are not worshipping these things. However I do think the money that is spent on these things could go to a better use.
     
  7. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    All of those passages are from the Old Testament. Those instructions are for the Jews' Temple and christians are not commanded to worship in temples anymore.
     
  8. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    I see.

    So does that passage apply to Catholics today? Or do they have a misunderstanding of the verse? You said they are for the Jews and that Christians are not commanded to worship in temples anymore. But Catholics consider themselves Christians, right?
     
  9. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    When one does as he is instructed, it's called obedience, when he takes it upon himself to do extra things, it's called adding to the Word of God. Forbidden in the First Testament and the Second.

    IS.29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
     
  10. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    I would say that it does apply to catholics. And no they don't exactly misunderstand the passage. I would say its more like taking the passage out of its original context. And yes, they do consider themselves christians.
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    again I think that this comes down to the difference between 'decoration' and 'veneration'. Of cource then this buggers the question of any religious symbols in Christianity... what about crosses and the like? Are these not 'graven images' as well?

    wa:do
     
  12. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    My question is, if these passages apply to Christians then why is it that they are not obligated to worship in temples?
     
  13. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    Well, I'm still not understanding why Catholics have statues and images in their church inspite of their supporting "evidence" from the Bible.
     
  14. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Not just Catholics, all Christians.
     
  15. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    i dont see what the problem is. even though you dont worship the crucifix, it still sybolizes God and helps you to concentrate your prayer. same thing with hindu idols. cept we put a lot more respect into it because they are holy and have tons (TONS) of meaning.
     
  16. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    1. The cross is a symbol of Jesus' death. I don't particularly see (nor do I recomend) the need for a crucifix in any church building. The important thing to remember is that He rose on the third day. Any one could die on a cross and be buried (and in fact many were). The emphasis is on His resurrection.

    2. When I said that the passages apply to everyone, what I menat to say was that the fact that they are O.T. passages that don't apply anymore applies to everyone. Does that make sense?

    3. Not all Christians have a cricifix in their places of worship. None of the Churches of Christ have them anywhere inside their buildings. At least, none that I have been to.
     
  17. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    what difference does it make if it's in the OT or the NT, they are still in the bible and still beleived in.
     
  18. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    We christians believe that when Jesus Christ came to earth that the old Law (the O.T.) was done away with. And a new law was established. So that is why christians don't offer animal sacrifices, nor are they forbidden from eating shelfish, and that is why we do not worship in temples.
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Hasatan deserves a gold star for the job he has done here!!!!!!!
    I detect a sincerity, sincerely wrong though!
    The law! Why do Christians scream when it is removed from courthouse?
    Animal sacrifices! Jews don't do them either. Why?
    Shellfish! Jews are not forbidden them either.
    Temple! Jews don't worship in a Temple either!
    The perfect Torah is forever.
    Shellfish are still unclean, notice in the NT (he declared all foods clean)(added) The subject in the text is eating with unwashed hands!
    When the Temple is rebuilt You and everyone who is on earth will go up to worship Elohim and do korbanot or suffer drought.
    Anywhere your NT deviates from being parallel to the Tanach it is added attractions!!!!!!
     
  20. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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