Did Floyd Die Because He Was Black?

[McBell]

I am saying they are not facts that would lead people to being killed. If he was white, a women or someone one of the cops respected he wouldn't be dead.

I am quite sure Floyds family would be extremely happy to know he is not dead.
You really should let them know.

 

[McBell]

It is utterly amazing to me how the vast majority of members posting in this here thread absolutely refuse to discuss the actual intended thread topic.

 

[fantome profane]

I guess you didn't watch the video link I provided.

I did. Show me the evidence he was intoxicated. Show me the evidence he passed a fake bill.

 

[Curious George]

I think we have to teach our kids to comply with the police who have been given the authority by this nation to use deadly force.

Police do not have the authority to use deadly force but for certain circumstances. As far as that goes we have given you the authority to use deadly force in certain circumstances.

 

[Nakosis]

Police do not have the authority to use deadly force but for certain circumstances. As far as that goes we have given you the authority to use deadly force in certain circumstances.

If only the world worked that cleanly. I suppose Geroge Floyd would still be alive.

 

[Nakosis]

I did. Show me the evidence he was intoxicated. Show me the evidence he passed a fake bill.

Show me the evidence that that the bill wasn't fake. Show me the evidence that Floyd was sober. I showed my evidence. You have better evidence? Show it.

 

[Scott C.]

Or did he die because of bad choices he made?

Yes if all you say is true, he made bad choices. If he had not made those choices he may still be alive. But, his bad choices did not justify him being murdered. If I make a bad choice and flip off someone in traffic and they come back and kill me, yeah I made a choice that led to my murder, but in no way justified it. I have no idea if had he been white, and all other factors the same, if he would have been killed. I would have to know the policeman better to understand if he would have killed a white guy and if he was thinking to himself at the time "I am going to keep my knee on his throat until he's dead because I want him dead." Or was he thinking "I'm really pissed at this guy and I'm going to ruin his day and hurt him", but with no intention to kill him? Regardless of the answers to these questions, it's clear the cop committed a serious crime, he's responsible for a death, and he deserves serious prison time. Those who push for murder 1 or 2, which require pre-meditation and intent are running the risk of acquittal. If I were on the jury, I'd be convinced he was guilty of taking a life and needed prison, but if I were not convinced on intent, I would have to acquit. That would create a very uncomfortable set of choices to 1) let a man go free who should be in prison or 2) vote guilty when I am not actually convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of what was in the his mind at the time. And.. rioters make it worse. They don't help. I'm not convinced that most of those who destroy, riot, and steal are the pure in heart who just want to be heard for justice. It distracts from the crime that started it all.

 

[Nakosis]

Then it might be time to take a look back to Dr. Martin Luther King -- and possibly to Mohandas K. Gandhi (from who MLK took some inspiration).

Stand up.
Be peaceful.
Say what you have to say with grace and as much power as your rhetorical skills allow.
Refuse to back down.
Refuse to be goaded into violence.

It works, you know.

Does it? Did it keep Floyd alive?

What will happen is it will be in the news for a while until some other horrible event comes along to take its place.

I don't know what you expect. This happens a lot and you are now aware of a single event. This happens hundreds, maybe thousands of times but there is no video. No news coverage. No awareness.

Here there was video, there was outrage. No video, no outrage. Think about that.

 

[fantome profane]

Show me the evidence that that the bill wasn't fake. Show me the evidence that Floyd was sober. I showed my evidence. You have better evidence? Show it.

Guilty till proven innocent?

 

[Nakosis]

Yes if all you say is true, he made bad choices. If he had not made those choices he may still be alive. But, his bad choices did not justify him being murdered. If I make a bad choice and flip off someone in traffic and they come back and kill me, yeah I made a choice that led to my murder, but in no way justified it. I have no idea if had he been white, and all other factors the same, if he would have been killed. I would have to know the policeman better to understand if he would have killed a white guy and if he was thinking to himself at the time "I am going to keep my knee on his throat until he's dead because I want him dead." Or was he thinking "I'm really pissed at this guy and I'm going to ruin his day and hurt him", but with no intention to kill him? Regardless of the answers to these questions, it's clear the cop committed a serious crime, he's responsible for a death, and he deserves serious prison time. Those who push for murder 1 or 2, which require pre-meditation and intent are running the risk of acquittal. If I were on the jury, I'd be convinced he was guilty of taking a life and needed prison, but if I were not convinced on intent, I would have to acquit. That would create a very uncomfortable set of choices to 1) let a man go free who should be in prison or 2) vote guilty when I am not actually convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of what was in the his mind at the time. And.. rioters make it worse. They don't help. I'm not convinced that most of those who destroy, riot, and steal are the pure in heart who just want to be heard for justice. It distracts from the crime that started it all.

I have never, in any way implied his death was justified. In fact, I am 100% certain there will be more injustice. There will always be racists and bullies we have to deal with. It's my opinion you can't rely on anyone other than yourself to survive the encounter. You never know when you are going to run into that person willing to abuse their power at the cost of your life.

 

[Curious George]

If only the world worked that cleanly. I suppose Geroge Floyd would still be alive.

You mean people can do things for which they do not have authority?

We are right back to the stranger in the van.

 

[Curious George]

I have never, in any way implied his death was justified. In fact, I am 100% certain there will be more injustice. There will always be racists and bullies we have to deal with. It's my opinion you can't rely on anyone other than yourself to survive the encounter. You never know when you are going to run into that person willing to abuse their power at the cost of your life.

Yes, you are pointing out that his behavior was causal not asserting it was the proximate cause.

That is fine and good, but in the same vein, your upbringing of your son was causal in his circumstance.

We can always wonder what if, but it is proximate cause on which we need to focus

 

[Nakosis]

Guilty till proven innocent?

Dead is dead. Proving Floyd's innocence is not going to bring him back.

Floyd could have been in the car and out of the area before ******** cop ever arrived on the scene. Floyd could be here to prove his own innocence.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Does it? Did it keep Floyd alive?

What will happen is it will be in the news for a while until some other horrible event comes along to take its place.

I don't know what you expect. This happens a lot and you are now aware of a single event. This happens hundreds, maybe thousands of times but there is no video. No news coverage. No awareness.

Here there was video, there was outrage. No video, no outrage. Think about that.

What, did you think I meant a single act would change everything? Don't be daft. But try to think back, maybe to Paine's "these are the times that try men's souls," or to King's "I have a dream..."

But this I can tell you: the more Americans pick up the theme, the more likely it is that you can effect change.

My nation isn't perfect, by any means, but one thing is for absolute certain: while we may have racism, it is miniscule in comparison to what Americans suffer. Canadians are learning, bit by bit, but ever so surely, to celebrate our differences.

Here are some words from a former Prime Minister of Canada, one I helped elect, actually. Pierre Trudeau said, in 1971:

"Uniformity is neither desirable nor possible in a country the size of Canada. We should not even be able to agree upon the kind of Canadian to choose as a model, let alone persuade most people to emulate it. There are few policies potentially more disastrous for Canada than to tell all Canadians that they must be alike. There is no such thing as a model or ideal Canadian. What could be more absurd than the concept of an “all-Canadian” boy or girl? A society which emphasizes uniformity is one which creates intolerance and hate. A society which eulogizes the average citizen is one which breeds mediocrity. What the world should be seeking, and what in Canada we must continue to cherish, are not concepts of uniformity but human values: compassion, love, and understanding."

 

[fantome profane]

Dead is dead. Proving Floyd's innocence is not going to bring him back.

Floyd could have been in the car and out of the area before ******** cop ever arrived on the scene. Floyd could be here to prove his own innocence.

That is no excuse for what you are doing. You are assuming his guilt without evidence.

 

[Nakosis]

You mean people can do things for which they do not have authority?

We are right back to the stranger in the van.

No, I don't think so. I mean you really think there is no difference between a police officer and a stranger in a van?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Or did he die because of bad choices he made?

There were, IMO, at least 3 bad choices made by George Floyd that day, any one of which if he had made better choices, he'd be alive today.

First bad choice - he chose to be intoxicated. Which impaired his thinking.

Second - He chose to pass fake bills, also chose to not return the cigarette when confronted by the store employees.

Third - He chose to resist the police when they tried to place him in the vehicle.


He was Black. Something he really had no choice over. Nothing he could have done different about that.
Dick-head cop was a racist. Ok, but Floyd had no choice over which cops were going to show up.
Floyd said he was claustrophobic, perhaps but I doubt the police would accept that as an excuse to not arrest him. If he had complied and gotten in the cruiser when ask, he would have been long gone before dick-head cop showed up on the scene.

Not saying the cop is not accountable but we have no control over what other people do. What we do have control over is our own action, our own choices. We have to make wise choices and cannot depend on others to make the wise choices for our own safety.

How disgusting. He was not resisting and how dare you suggest he deserved it just for an allegedly fake $20. We calmly arrest white mass murderers, but brutally torture and murder non-violent people of color for petty crimes that aren't hurting anyone, really.

 

[Nakosis]

What, did you think I meant a single act would change everything? Don't be daft.

Nope

But try to think back, maybe to Paine's "these are the times that try men's souls," or to King's "I have a dream..."

But this I can tell you: the more Americans pick up the theme, the more likely it is that you can effect change.

My nation isn't perfect, by any means, but one thing is for absolute certain: while we may have racism, it is miniscule in comparison to what Americans suffer. Canadians are learning, bit by bit, but ever so surely, to celebrate our differences.

Here are some words from a former Prime Minister of Canada, one I helped elect, actually. Pierre Trudeau said, in 1971:

"Uniformity is neither desirable nor possible in a country the size of Canada. We should not even be able to agree upon the kind of Canadian to choose as a model, let alone persuade most people to emulate it. There are few policies potentially more disastrous for Canada than to tell all Canadians that they must be alike. There is no such thing as a model or ideal Canadian. What could be more absurd than the concept of an “all-Canadian” boy or girl? A society which emphasizes uniformity is one which creates intolerance and hate. A society which eulogizes the average citizen is one which breeds mediocrity. What the world should be seeking, and what in Canada we must continue to cherish, are not concepts of uniformity but human values: compassion, love, and understanding."

Sure, hope you are right, but in the meantime, we are back to my previous post.

 

[Nakosis]

How disgusting. He was not resisting and how dare you suggest he deserved it just for an allegedly fake $20. We calmly arrest white mass murderers, but brutally torture and murder non-violent people of color for petty crimes that aren't hurting anyone, really.

Please show where I suggested that he deserved it.

 

[Nakosis]

That is no excuse for what you are doing. You are assuming his guilt without evidence.

Doesn't matter what I assume. It matters what the police assumed. What I assume didn't kill him.