Did Dungeons and Dragons make me an Atheist?

[Kuzcotopia]

I have been playing D&D since I was about ten, and I consider it to be my primary creative outlet. Through the game, I have created unique multi-planar cosmologies, and perhaps hundreds of gods, and hundreds more religions and religious practices to go with those gods. In younger times, I would copy concepts taken from other religious in RL, but now that I’m older, I think only about the seed of the narrative conflicts, in all of its motivations and concerns. As players often ask questions beyond the scope, I have to put myself in that mindset so I can provide answers, or riddles, or ask a question back as the situation demands.

This has become quite easy for me to do as an adult. I think seriously about religion and faith all the time, but I mostly do so in the context of creating new ones that are embedded into the fabric of political, social, and geographical systems that I am also creating. I also have to consider mystical realities beyond the Prime Material world, ones that are not culturally situated in direct material experience. I have to consider what realms without thought or movement or energy or void might look like, or might be experienced. I have to consider what other planes of existence look like, and how their philosophies inform the natures of their experiences whether epistemological or moral.

As a D&D player, I am addicted to narratives. Addicted. I ended up majoring in English for no practical reason. I have a master’s degree in Literature, again, for no practical reason. But one of the things this addiction has taught me is the tools to recognize those narratives in everything I see in the real world, in accepted history and the finite number of accepted religions and political systems it has created. I try to determine why some are exciting and why some are not, and it becomes reflex to not only consider what it is, but what it could be, and how could I use it for my narratives?

My problems with theism and it recognition of legit god concepts is most likely the very specific narrative nature of it. Because I relate to the world as acts of storytelling that I use for inspiration, I can’t help but see faith and god concepts as limited and arbitrary, serving a very specific narrative that people somehow accept as some kind of truth. Why accept a single defining story, instead of seeing endless possibilities?

But then I realize that if I can create them, tweak them, ignore them, or appropriate them, then all accepted religious narratives are essentially arbitrary. This is the most likely seed of my atheism. I suppose if I did want to believe in something, it would be an utterly invented concept of my own, and while there’s nothing wrong with that and people do it all the time, there is no way to separate the mythology I’ve constructed from my ability to understand why I constructed it, or ignore the fact that I constructed it in the first place. I can’t accept the story if I am also the storyteller. I just see that as a contradiction.

Anyone else play D&D? Has it changed your views on real world religions, politics, or history?

 

[Quintessence]

How odd. I'd think realizing the power of story would have led to a more mature understanding of religion, it's role in people's lives, and the nature of mythology.

Sorry, that probably sounded condescending. It's just that what you're describing - storytelling - is the fundamental engine of religion, be it theistic or atheistic. The part missing is that the narratives aren't arbitrary, we select narratives because we like them and they're meaningful for us. They become sacred, cultural stories that guide a people and frame their way of life. Considering many self-identified religious people miss the purpose of religious narrative and storytelling, I'm never surprised when self-identified non-religious people miss it, but when I see it, I find it both odd and sad. Odd, because they're so close to something profound, and sad because they're missing out on making that profound thing an enriching part of their lives. I suppose there's not really a way to say these things without possibly coming off as condescending, is there?

At any rate, my love of the fantasy genre, role-playing games included, is definitely part of what lead me to the contemporary Pagan aesthetic, along with its religious practices. Recognizing the power of story without clinging to stupid things like mythological literalism is commonplace within the community, especially in contemporary Druidry. I wanted to be those spellcasting classes, and in particular D&D druids, but was totally ignorant of it being an actual thing. I'd found my narrative, but didn't realize it until way later in life than I should have, because I was stuck in thinking about religion from the perspective that dominates my culture. Now, as an OBODie, the meaningfulness and purpose of storytelling - including in the context of role-playing games - is taking on dimensions above and beyond my expectations. When I run game, I am shouldering the mantle of the Bard, and I'm recognizing being a game master for the religious activity it has always been. My players probably won't see it that way, but it doesn't matter. That they're having the experience of being taken on a journey and participating in a meaningful, fun story is what matters. Awen will flow through them whether they even know what that word means or not, and it enriches all of our lives. The effect is key, not the label we put to it.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

How odd. I'd think realizing the power of story would have led to a more mature understanding of religion, it's role in people's lives, and the nature of mythology.

Sorry, that probably sounded condescending. It's just that what you're describing - storytelling - is the fundamental engine of religion, be it theistic or atheistic. The part missing is that the narratives aren't arbitrary, we select narratives because we like them and they're meaningful for us. They become sacred, cultural stories that guide a people and frame their way of life. Considering many self-identified religious people miss the purpose of religious narrative and storytelling, I'm never surprised when self-identified non-religious people miss it, but when I see it, I find it both odd and sad. Odd, because they're so close to something profound, and sad because they're missing out on making that profound thing an enriching part of their lives. I suppose there's not really a way to say these things without possibly coming off as condescending, is there?

I suppose I can probably separate the condescension of your post from its content. If you hadn't directly mentioned it I probably wouldn't have noticed.

I'm not sure I agree that my conclusions are immature if my understanding of narrative power doesn't automatically lead to a reverence of those narratives. I don't think I can "unopen" that door in my perspective and see it with the same eyes that you do, because I really have studied it as objectively as it's possible (I know what your going to say. . . remember I said "as it's possible"). For me, it's just so easy to lose myself into any narrative, so I approach them all as being rather arbitrary. I will admit that some narratives grab hold of me more than others, but that just helps me I understand why some religious narratives are more popular than others, even if the religious themselves don't see that thread of understanding the way I do.

And it is an enriching part of my life already. I'm sorry if I came across as suggesting it wasn't.

At any rate, my love of the fantasy genre, role-playing games included, is definitely part of what lead me to the contemporary Pagan aesthetic, along with its religious practices. Recognizing the power of story without clinging to stupid things like mythological literalism is commonplace within the community, especially in contemporary Druidry. I wanted to be those spellcasting classes, and in particular D&D druids, but was totally ignorant of it being an actual thing. I'd found my narrative, but didn't realize it until way later in life than I should have, because I was stuck in thinking about religion from the perspective that dominates my culture. Now, as an OBODie, the meaningfulness and purpose of storytelling - including in the context of role-playing games - is taking on dimensions above and beyond my expectations. When I run game, I am shouldering the mantle of the Bard, and I'm recognizing being a game master for the religious activity it has always been. My players probably won't see it that way, but it doesn't matter. That they're having the experience of being taken on a journey and participating in a meaningful, fun story is what matters. Awen will flow through them whether they even know what that word means or not, and it enriches all of our lives. The effect is key, not the label we put to it.

That is a really cool way to see your role in the game. I have felt a certain power there too in the sharing of that story, but I fall quite short of considering it divine. As I've gotten better at understanding the rhythms of narrative in the game, it's been easier to produce that feeling.

For me, as I grew in maturity as a DM, I really stopped focusing on myself and my "performance." If the narrative is working, I am no longer self-conciousness about what I am doing. My mind is engaged, and I'm still making choices and using words and gestures, but I'm in the moment of whatever dramatic turn I'm trying to express.

Instead of me, it's about everyone else at the table. I read them for emotion and interest, and I have to consider both their character's wants and needs, but their wants and needs as people. Where do I bridge that gap? When it's working, the narrative is not in either, but in the strange unmediated interplay between character and player. In the end, it's not about giving either of them what they want, but presenting situations where they have a medium to express their desires and their actions. I am getting quite good at it, and that feeling of narrative control is addictive as Hades.

Edit: As an extra bonus, I have used multiple colours to reflect the particular emotional tone of each paragraph. Can you interpret the meaning of each color? Hint: Orange = playful.

 

[jeager106]

D&D is a GAME. It makes millions of bucks for the creators of the game.
You let a computer game guide you spiritual life?

 

[Koldo]

D&D is a GAME. It makes millions of bucks for the creators of the game.
You let a computer game guide you spiritual life?

This is not what he is saying.
And he is not talking about a 'computer' game either.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is not what he is saying.
And he is not talking about a 'computer' game either.

I remember the boxed sets of d&d.

 

[Quintessence]

D&D is a GAME. It makes millions of bucks for the creators of the game.
You let a computer game guide you spiritual life?

So... someone can only be inspired by something if you personally approve of it? It's quite fortunate that the real world doesn't work that way. The bards of the ages would be rolling in their graves.

 

[jeager106]

Not personally apporved by me. I'd never be so conceited.
Being inspired by D&D is a bit unconventional however. But that's merely an opinion worth what all opinions are worth.
Hail to the bards of the ages.

 

[Nada]

I have been playing D&D since I was about ten, and I consider it to be my primary creative outlet. Through the game, I have created unique multi-planar cosmologies, and perhaps hundreds of gods, and hundreds more religions and religious practices to go with those gods. In younger times, I would copy concepts taken from other religious in RL, but now that I’m older, I think only about the seed of the narrative conflicts, in all of its motivations and concerns. As players often ask questions beyond the scope, I have to put myself in that mindset so I can provide answers, or riddles, or ask a question back as the situation demands.

This has become quite easy for me to do as an adult. I think seriously about religion and faith all the time, but I mostly do so in the context of creating new ones that are embedded into the fabric of political, social, and geographical systems that I am also creating. I also have to consider mystical realities beyond the Prime Material world, ones that are not culturally situated in direct material experience. I have to consider what realms without thought or movement or energy or void might look like, or might be experienced. I have to consider what other planes of existence look like, and how their philosophies inform the natures of their experiences whether epistemological or moral.

As a D&D player, I am addicted to narratives. Addicted. I ended up majoring in English for no practical reason. I have a master’s degree in Literature, again, for no practical reason. But one of the things this addiction has taught me is the tools to recognize those narratives in everything I see in the real world, in accepted history and the finite number of accepted religions and political systems it has created. I try to determine why some are exciting and why some are not, and it becomes reflex to not only consider what it is, but what it could be, and how could I use it for my narratives?

My problems with theism and it recognition of legit god concepts is most likely the very specific narrative nature of it. Because I relate to the world as acts of storytelling that I use for inspiration, I can’t help but see faith and god concepts as limited and arbitrary, serving a very specific narrative that people somehow accept as some kind of truth. Why accept a single defining story, instead of seeing endless possibilities?

But then I realize that if I can create them, tweak them, ignore them, or appropriate them, then all accepted religious narratives are essentially arbitrary. This is the most likely seed of my atheism. I suppose if I did want to believe in something, it would be an utterly invented concept of my own, and while there’s nothing wrong with that and people do it all the time, there is no way to separate the mythology I’ve constructed from my ability to understand why I constructed it, or ignore the fact that I constructed it in the first place. I can’t accept the story if I am also the storyteller. I just see that as a contradiction.

Anyone else play D&D? Has it changed your views on real world religions, politics, or history?

I used to play it all the time back in the 80's.We all sat at lunch at our own table and our Dungeon Master who held these meetings would have the story already lined up for us.We all had our own papers that held all info including things like,strength,dexterity magic,food etc.. We would roll the dice and play away.This is where I learned about magic and stuff of that nature.I even went on to play a B- movie version of D&D called Exodus.I was hauled off to the principals office for having these items.Satanism was all over the place in the 80's These games made us look like little evil dudes.One day a friend of mine was going to go home with another buddy to pick up some dice to play.The friend returned all full of blood.He would not say anything.Well,come to find out later ,my friend was getting the dice but in the process stumbled across his fathers pistol.He accidentally shot his brains out in front of the other boy.It was horrible.I will never forget that.

Now I know that games like this are not really good for the mind.Fantasy games such as these only feed negativity into the brain.

 

[Nada]

I have been playing D&D since I was about ten, and I consider it to be my primary creative outlet. Through the game, I have created unique multi-planar cosmologies, and perhaps hundreds of gods, and hundreds more religions and religious practices to go with those gods. In younger times, I would copy concepts taken from other religious in RL, but now that I’m older, I think only about the seed of the narrative conflicts, in all of its motivations and concerns. As players often ask questions beyond the scope, I have to put myself in that mindset so I can provide answers, or riddles, or ask a question back as the situation demands.

This has become quite easy for me to do as an adult. I think seriously about religion and faith all the time, but I mostly do so in the context of creating new ones that are embedded into the fabric of political, social, and geographical systems that I am also creating. I also have to consider mystical realities beyond the Prime Material world, ones that are not culturally situated in direct material experience. I have to consider what realms without thought or movement or energy or void might look like, or might be experienced. I have to consider what other planes of existence look like, and how their philosophies inform the natures of their experiences whether epistemological or moral.

As a D&D player, I am addicted to narratives. Addicted. I ended up majoring in English for no practical reason. I have a master’s degree in Literature, again, for no practical reason. But one of the things this addiction has taught me is the tools to recognize those narratives in everything I see in the real world, in accepted history and the finite number of accepted religions and political systems it has created. I try to determine why some are exciting and why some are not, and it becomes reflex to not only consider what it is, but what it could be, and how could I use it for my narratives?

My problems with theism and it recognition of legit god concepts is most likely the very specific narrative nature of it. Because I relate to the world as acts of storytelling that I use for inspiration, I can’t help but see faith and god concepts as limited and arbitrary, serving a very specific narrative that people somehow accept as some kind of truth. Why accept a single defining story, instead of seeing endless possibilities?

But then I realize that if I can create them, tweak them, ignore them, or appropriate them, then all accepted religious narratives are essentially arbitrary. This is the most likely seed of my atheism. I suppose if I did want to believe in something, it would be an utterly invented concept of my own, and while there’s nothing wrong with that and people do it all the time, there is no way to separate the mythology I’ve constructed from my ability to understand why I constructed it, or ignore the fact that I constructed it in the first place. I can’t accept the story if I am also the storyteller. I just see that as a contradiction.

Anyone else play D&D? Has it changed your views on real world religions, politics, or history?

There was actually a movie about Dungeons and Dragons where the dude playing it looses all touch with reality.It was in the 80's.
It is called "Mazes and Monsters",starring Tom Hanks 1982.

Mazes and Monsters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Koldo]

Now I know that games like this are not really good for the mind.Fantasy games such as these only feed negativity into the brain.

Wait... what?

 

[Nada]

Wait... what?

It has nothing to do with the story I told.This is just how I feel about D & D now.

 

[Koldo]

It has nothing to do with the story I told.This is just how I feel about it now.

Why do you feel like that ?

 

[Nada]

Why do you feel like that ?

"Psychological impact[edit]
Dungeons & Dragons has been plagued by rumors since the early 1980s of players having psychological problems related to the game. These include claims that players have difficulty separating fantasy and reality, even leading to schizophrenia and suicide.

Mazes and Monsters[edit]
Main article: James Dallas Egbert III
As the role-playing game hobby began to grow, it was connected to the story in 1979 of the disappearance of 16-year-old James Dallas Egbert III. Egbert had attempted suicide in the utility tunnels beneath the campus of Michigan State University. After this unsuccessful attempt, he hid at a friend's house for approximately a month.

A well-publicized search for Egbert began, and his parents hired private investigator William Dear to seek out their son. Dear knew nothing about Dungeons & Dragons at that time, but speculated to the press that Egbert had gotten lost in the steam tunnels during a live-action version of the game. The press largely reported the story as fact, which served as the kernel of a persistent rumor regarding such "steam tunnel incidents". Egbert's suicide attempts, including his successful suicide the following year (by self-inflicted gunshot) had no connection whatsoever to D&D; it resulted from clinical depression and great stress.[13]

Rona Jaffe published Mazes and Monsters in 1981, a thinly disguised fictionalization of the press exaggerations of the Egbert case. In an era when very few people understood role-playing games it seemed plausible to some elements of the public that a player might experience a psychotic episode and lose touch with reality during role-playing. The book was adapted into a made-for-television movie in 1982 starring Tom Hanks, and the publicity surrounding both the novel and film heightened the public's unease regarding role-playing games. In 1983, the Canadian film Skullduggery depicted a role-playing game similar to D&D as tool of the devil to transform a young man into a serial killer.

Dear revealed the truth of the incident in his 1984 book The Dungeon Master, in which he repudiated the link between D&D and Egbert's disappearance. Dear acknowledged that Egbert's domineering mother had more to do with his problems than his interest in role-playing games.[13]

Neal Stephenson's 1984 novel satirizing university life, The Big U, includes a series of similar incidents in which a live-action fantasy role-player dies in a steam tunnel accident, leading to another gamer becoming mentally unstable and unable to distinguish reality from the game.

Hobgoblin[edit]
Hobgoblin is a 1981 novel by horror and suspense writer John Coyne that followed on the angst about the Egbert incident, D&D, and fantasy role-playing games in general. It is about a young man, Scott Gardiner, who is traumatized by the sudden death of his father and by his mother's decision to take a job as caretaker of an isolated estate called Ballycastle. Ostracized by his peers at the local high school, Scott takes refuge in Hobgoblin, a role-playing game based on Ancient Celtic cults.

60 Minutes special[edit]
In 1985, a segment of 60 Minutes was devoted to the game, including interviews with Gary Gygax and his lawyer, and Patricia Pulling, as well as parents of players of the game, who had allegedly committed murders and suicides connected to the game.[14]

Lieth Von Stein[edit]
In 1988, a murder case in Washington, North Carolina involving North Carolina State University students brought Dungeons & Dragonsmore unfavorable publicity. Chris Pritchard allegedly masterminded the murder of his stepfather, Lieth Von Stein, for his $2 million fortune. Both von Stein and his wife, Bonnie, were bludgeoned and stabbed by masked assailants in their bedroom, leaving the husband mortally wounded and the wife injured.[15]

Chris Pritchard had a long history of mutual antagonism with his stepfather, and state investigators learned over the course of a year that Pritchard had developed some unhealthy associations at NCSU. Pritchard had a history of alcohol and drug use.[citation needed] But the NCSU authorities focused on his role-playing group after a game map depicting the von Stein house turned up as physical evidence. Pritchard's friends, Gerald Neal Henderson and James Upchurch, were implicated in a plot to help Pritchard kill his stepfather. All three young men went to state prison in 1990. Henderson and Pritchard have since been paroled. Upchurch's death sentence was commuted to life in 1992; he is serving his term.

True crime authors Joe McGinniss and Jerry Bledsoe played up the role-playing angle. Much attention was given to Upchurch's influence and power as a Dungeon Master. Bledsoe's book, Blood Games, was made into a TV movie, Honor Thy Mother, in 1992. That same year, McGinniss' book was adapted into a two part TV miniseries, Cruel Doubt, directed by Yves Simoneau. The latter film featured real role-playing game materials, doctored to imply they had caused the murders.[16]

Israeli army[edit]
While several news sources claim that the Israeli army frowns on the playing of Dungeons & Dragons by its soldiers, this claim is attributed to an anonymous source and is otherwise unsubstantiated. It is not the official position of the Israeli army. The claim is reported to be false by role players in Israel. D&D is a popular game in Israel that children can learn and play in after school programs run by paid Dungeon Masters.[17]

Clinical research[edit]
The American Association of Suicidology, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and Health and Welfare Canada all concluded that there is no causal link between fantasy gaming and suicide.[18] In 1990, the writer Michael Stackpole authored The Pulling Report, a review highly critical of Patricia Pulling and BADD's methods of data collection, analysis, and reporting.[19]

Researchers outside the context of BADD have investigated the emotional impact of Dungeons & Dragons since the 1980s. Studies have shown that depression and suicidal tendencies are not typically associated with role players.[20] Feelings of alienation are not associated with mainstream players, though those who are deeply, and often financially, committed to the game do tend to have these feelings.[21]According to one study there is "no significant correlation between years of playing the game and emotional stability."[22]

One 2015 study has suggested that psychiatrists do not associate role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons with poor mental health.[23]

Promotes gang related activity[edit]
In 2004, Wisconsin's Waupun prison instituted a ban on playing Dungeons & Dragons, arguing that it promoted gang-related activity. The policy went into effect based upon an anonymous letter from an inmate stating that the four prisoners that played the game were forming a "gang". When the ban took effect, the prison confiscated all D&D-related materials. Inmate Kevin T. Singer, a dedicated player of the game, sentenced to a life term for first-degree homicide, sought to overturn the ban, saying it violated his First Amendment rights. However, on January 25, 2010, the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the ban as a "reasonable policy".[24]"

Dungeons & Dragons controversies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Quintessence]

Oh yes! The "controversies." What a riot, those are. Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing hysterically...

... okay. A recommendation for people who don't understand what tabletop RPGs are really about? Watch this movie:

It's pretty much about social relationships with other people as much as any other group activity is. And if it's nefarious, it would be no more so than people getting together to host a poker night or watch a football game.

 

[Nada]

Oh yes! The "controversies." What a riot, those are. Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing hysterically...

... okay. A recommendation for people who don't understand what tabletop RPGs are really about? Watch this movie:

It's pretty much about social relationships with other people as much as any other group activity is. And if it's nefarious, it would be no more so than people getting together to host a poker night or watch a football game.

Football and poker do not have magic spells in them,nor killings.Except for that scene in the movie ,The Last Boy Scout." @3:44 mark

 

[Quintessence]

Football and poker do not have magic spells in them and killings.

Nope, they've got worse. They have people gambling away and loosing their real-world money, and thus possibly impoverishing themselves and their dependent; in the case of football, activities commonly causes real-world injuries including brain damage, along with fans imbibing excessive amounts of alcohol that leads them to behave in real-world unsavory ways with real-world unsavory consequences. Oh. And we can't forget the body odor. Any activity that endorses males to produce more offensive body odors is just not acceptable.

 

[Nada]

Nope, they've got worse. They have people gambling away and loosing their real-world money, and thus possibly impoverishing themselves and their dependent; in the case of football, activities commonly causes real-world injuries including brain damage, along with fans imbibing excessive amounts of alcohol that leads them to behave in real-world unsavory ways with real-world unsavory consequences. Oh. And we can't forget the body odor. Any activity that endorses males to produce more offensive body odors is just not acceptable.

USA, USA, USA, USA!!! Lol.....

 

[horsethorn]

Now I know that games like this are not really good for the mind.Fantasy games such as these only feed negativity into the brain.

On another site, a Q&A one, I responded to this question:

"What can you learn from Dungeons and Dragons?"

Here's my answer:

"Mental arithmetic, teamwork, strategy, tactics, logistics, bureaucracy, research/referencing, negotiation and compromise, philosophy, project management, and which Monty Python quotes are the most relevant to a given situation."

Tabletop RPGs are excellent for the brain. They teach a wide range of skills, and promote the acquisition of knowledge. The only reason to oppose them is if you oppose these things too.

 

[SomeRandom]

Monty Python quotes are the most relevant to a given situation

The best and most worthy skill anything can teach us!!