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Featured Did Christianity Start with Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Everything started with Jesus according to the Bible ...

    But as for Christianity we know Jesus told them to wait at Jerusalem until they were "endowed with power from on high"

    This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost according to the book of Acts. At first they were all Jews but simply believed in Jesus as the Messiah. But then they received the revelation that they could and should also preach the gospel to the gentiles.
     
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  2. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Carrier is using Ignatius to show there were other groups of Christians who did not believe the sories were literal but were allegory. So? :

    "So not only is this “Ignatius” insisting the Gospels are relating historical facts, but he is declaring that any Christians who say otherwise are to be outright shunned. Which does mean there were Christians saying otherwise. But it also quite decisively proves that this other strain of Christianity—which we might call Ignatian, and which happens to be the one that in a couple of centuries would gain absolute political power over the whole of the West and control nearly all document preservation for a thousand years, eventually becoming today’s plethora of Christendom—was adamantly literalist. They were shunning, expelling, damning any fellow Christians who dare suggest the Gospels are but allegories and not to be taken as historically true."

    Paul does not use the word "for being born" where he does in Romans 9:11. You have not debunked Carries point at all.




    "Made" "become" the seed is exactly what Carrier is saying. The language doesn't allow us to be 100% sure.

    "We cannot answer the question with the data available whether Paul meant “sperm” (i.e. seed) allegorically (as he does mean elsewhere when he speaks of seeds and births, such as of Gentiles becoming the seed of Abraham by God’s declaration), or literally (God manufacturing a body for Jesus from the actual sperm of David), or figuratively (as a claim of biological descent—-even though Paul’s vocabulary does not match such an assertion, but that of direct manufacture). At best it’s equal odds. We can’t tell."

    What Did Paul Mean in Romans 1:3? • Richard Carrier


    Mystery religion - outsiders were told of a historical resurrection, members were revealed the mysteries, one being the event took place in the heavens.:

    "Not only does Plutarch say Osiris returned to life and was recreated, exact terms for resurrection (anabiôsis and paliggenesia: On Isis and Osiris 35; see my discussion in The Empty Tomb, pp. 154-55), and also describe his physically returning to earth after his death (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 19), but the physical resurrection of Osiris’s corpse is explicitly described in pre-Christian pyramid inscriptions!...
    Plutarch goes on to explicitly state that this resurrection on earth (set in actual earth history) in the same body he died in (reassembled and restored to life) was the popular belief, promoted in allegorical tales by the priesthood—as was also the god’s later descent to rule Hades. But the secret “true” belief taught among the initiated priesthood was that Osiris becomes incarnate, dies, and rises back to life every year in a secret cosmic battle in the sublunar heavens."
    Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

    We know little about early Jesus followers. We do know dying/rising savior demigods were the rage, the Persians had one and the OT had been radically updated by the Persian ideas during the occupation which included prophecies of a Jewish version of one of these saviors who would permanently forgive sins (no more temple or temple sacrifices) and get followers into the afterlife.

    We also know early Christianity was split among many factions each having very different ideas including radically different "Gnostic" groups.
    Thinking that you have heard about some followers who had an idea about the sacrifice which then removes mythicism is absurd.



    QUOTE="Miken, post: 6907841, member: 70034"]

    Of course, we can tell what Paul meant.

    If we leave out 2 Samuel 7:12 and Romans 1:3, which Carrier claims mean something else. We have only 8 instances in the entire Bible where the word seed means sperm. And those 8 instances, 4 are about the necessary purification rituals after ejaculation (did dead David perform those?) and 4 are about the evils of screwing around with the wrong women (not a very good image for what Carrier claims Paul means). All of the other uses of the word are very clearly about plant seeds or descendants.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah but Carriers argument uses 2 Samuel7:12 :

    "
    • It is an indisputable fact that Nathan’s prophecy of the messiah literally declared that God said to David that, upon his death, “I shall raise your sperm after you, who will come out of your belly” (2 Samuel 7:12) and that seed will sit upon an eternal throne (7:13).
    • It is an indisputable fact that Nathan’s prophecy was proved false: the throne of David’s progeny was not eternal; when Christianity began, Davidic kings had not ruled Judea for centuries.
    • It is an indisputable fact that when faced with a falsified prophecy, Jews almost always reinterpreted that prophecy in a way that rescued it from being false.
    • It is an indisputable fact that the easiest way to rescue Nathan’s prophecy from being false is to read Nathan’s prophecy literally and not figuratively as originally intended: as the messiah being made directly from David’s seed and then ruling forever, thus establishing direct continuity and thus, one could then say, an eternal throne did come directly from David.
    Put all this together and there is no reason to believe Paul meant Romans 1:3 any other way than the only way that rescues Nathan’s messianic prophecy from being false. And that prophecy would be false if it were taken to mean the seed of a continuous line of sitting kings. So Paul cannot have believed it meant that. And Paul’s choice of vocabulary in linking this prophecy to Jesus, based on what we can show was Paul’s own peculiar idiom everywhere else regarding the difference between manufactured and birthed bodies, and his statement in Philippians which confirms he believed Jesus had a body made for him that Jesus then merely occupied, confirms this. No evidence in Paul confirms any other reading.

    It’s also a fact that:

    • The Gospels of Matthew and Luke depict Jesus as not descended from the seed of David but directly manufactured by God (this time in the womb of Mary). Though they both give a Davidic genealogy for Joseph, they both explicitly say Jesus was not born of the seed of Joseph.
    • Therefore even the authors of the Gospels believed either that Jesus’s body was manufactured by God directly out of the seed of David or the “seed of David” prophecy was only meant allegorically. They cannot have understood it figuratively (as meaning biological descent), because they explicitly exclude that in their chosen description of Jesus’s origins.





    What missionaries exactly and this is definitely more speculation.



    In the gospels there are Sadducees and Pharisees and no Essenes. So it's likely that Mark/Jesus is the Essene point of view. Jesus was t an Essene, he is a character in a story. In real life there would have been many people representing the Essene but in a story it's represented by one character.
     
  3. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    The parallels between the Genesis and Mesopotamian myths are well established by scholarship and some sources are in the article.
    The Israelites used Mesopotamian myths to create their versions.

    "Borrowing themes from Mesopotamian mythology, but adapting them to the Israelite people's belief in one God"
    "
    Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,[17][18] but adapted them to their belief in one God,[2] establishing a monotheistic creation in opposition to the polytheistic creation myth of ancient Israel's neighbors.[19][20]"
    "Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths."
    "Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic – parallels that in fact extend throughout Genesis 2–11, from the Creation to the Flood and its aftermath."
    Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia







    "Mary Boyce, an authority on Zoroastrianism, writes:

    Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[30]


    Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity, Islam,[8] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism."

    The The role of the Saoshyant, or Astvat-ereta, as a future saviour of the world is briefly described in Yasht 19.88-96, where it is stated that he will achieve the Frashokereti, that he will make the world perfect and immortal, and evil and Druj will disappear.

    This pre-dates Christainity.
    In Boyce's book you can actually go to page 41 and see the quote.
    Zoroastrians
    "
    At 5:16 Carrier explains the influence the Persians had


    and at 2:30 Professor Fransesca Stravopolou also explains the Persian influence and re-working of Judaism during the occupation.






    The Yash that world savior comes from was established by 6BC according to Mary Boyce in her book. But this does not matter because scholarship recognizes 6-7 pre-Christain dying/rising savior demigods.

    Well besides that the Persian beliefs pre-date Christianity there are 6 or 7 dying/rising savior demigods who pre-date Christianity as agreed by the historicity field. SO scholars argues the Persians were first. That would be some kind of non-scholarly apologetics argument.

    Now this is getting apologetic. Apocalyptic literature entered the Bible after it had been exposed to another religion who has this. False religions will all end in fire. Religious syncrenism doesn't need be exact, it actually is supposed to change up concepts a bit.

    Zoroastrian influence
    R. C. Zaehner, a professor of Eastern religions, argues for Zoroastrianism's direct influence on Jewish eschatological myths, especially the resurrection of the dead with rewards and punishments.[33]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_mythology#Zoroastrian_influence
    Linear history

    The mythologist Joseph Campbell believes the Judeo-Christian idea of linear history originated with the Iranian religion of Zoroastrianism. In the mythologies of India and the Far East, "the world was not to be reformed, but only known, revered, and its laws obeyed".[34] In contrast, in Zoroastrianism, the current world is "corrupt [...] and to be reformed by human action".[34] According to Campbell, this "progressive view of cosmic history"[35] "can be heard echoed and re-echoed, in Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaean, Arabic, and every tongue of the West".[36]
    Mary Boyce echoes this belief.
     
  4. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where exactly "sin" stands under other savior deities. Sin is usually a major part of all religions. In Hinduism it forms all ethics and morality and all sorts of concepts arise out of it.
    Jesus as a replacement for the annual magic blood atonement ritual as the ultimate one time blood magic ritual for forgiveness of sins is likely the entire reason for the movement.



    `

    That it's all myth. This works in favor of mythicism.


    `

    Because as this author is pointing out in this case (Mark) is transforming his story with narratives from other stories and the OT.
    It just demonstrates these were highly educated authors writing fiction.


    "On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives."
    Gospel – The Open Mind

    These are common technique in Hebrew, Greek and Latin. How does this relate to ‘mythic literature’. And how exactly does ‘transformation of OT narratives’ relate to mythic literature.

    At 16:09 Carrier demonstrates Luke is using an OT narrative directly to create an updated story.

    Jesus as Moses is the entire point of the updated religion. This suggests these stories are myth (among other things)


    In this same video at 29:08 Carrier gives several demonstrations of narratives from the OT being used in the NT. Triadic cycles in Mark (these don't happen in the real world), a Matthew chiasmis, Luke re-using a story (they are fabrications),

    `

    Yes I understand this.



    `

    Most of the text as we now know it it 5th century onward - Persian Period 2:30 professor F.S.


    `
    Paul and those who came before hear a story about their own Jewish version of the dying/rising demigod who was already prophecized in scripture. It works fine. Carrier's odds are 3 to 1 in favor.




    `

    Both videos presenting explanations by PhD biblical scholars are speaking of theories not their own but established scholarship.
    The main tenants of he Persian religion are dated to at least 6BCE
    "When Zoroaster marked the initial success of his prophetic mission in 588 BC, converting King Vishtaspa to become a Zoroastrian, he was already forty years old. Since he lived seventy seven years, it is generally agreed among scholars to date him at 628-551 BC."

    Early Zoroastrianism

    Mary Boyce who lived in Iran for 1 year is the leading authority on the religion.



    `


    More articles sourcing Mary Boyce:

    Historical Text Archive: Electronic History Resources, online since 1990

    "It is during the Inter-testament period (400-1 B.C.E.) where the infiltration of Zoroastrian doctrines are clearly seen. The book of Daniel bears all the marks of Zoroastrian influence. Most scholars believe that Daniel wrote this work during the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid ruler Antiochus IV around 168 B.C.E. Antiochus IV sought to force the Jews to deny their religious practices, and his atrocities culminated in the sacrifice of a pig on the altar in the Temple. Daniel places the revelations in the context of several Persian Kings (Cyrus and Darius are included). Yet there is no mistake he is referring to Antiochus. Daniel calls Antiochus IV “the abomination of desolation” (Daniel 9:27). Daniel takes several Zoroastrian doctrines and places them in a Jewish context. He looks to the coming of the Anointed One, one “like a Son of Man” who will come as a cosmic ruler and overcome evil (7:14-15, 9:26). Christians see this as Jesus Christ. In Zoroastrian’s scheme, this is the final Saoshyant (world redeemer). Daniel employs the dualism of the forces of good against evil, and even gives names to two of the “good” angels of Yahweh, Michael and Gabriel (9:21, 12:1). Is this not an obvious borrowing from the naming of the forces of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman? Whereas Jews before the exile viewed death as the end, and if there was an afterlife, it was a murky existence of shadows, Daniel says there will be a restoration and a physical resurrection at the end. Those who are righteous will experience eternal life, those who have lived lives of evil will experience everlasting shame and contempt (12:1-2). From books like these, it becomes clear that Zoroastrian’s shadow falls heavily on later Jewish writers."
     
  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Again, I apologize for misunderstanding recently. You bring up an interesting point. (Back to topic.) The inscription over his head said, "King of the Jews," not "he said he was King of the Jews." Or as John 19:21 puts it, "However, the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate: “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” Pilate did not listen to the chief priests but let the inscription remain "King of the Jews." I am sure the priests didn't like that.
    An interesting point.
     
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  6. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    It would have started with his followers. Jesus practiced Judaism.
     
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  7. Goddess Kit

    Goddess Kit Active Member

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    Christianity started when some creative writers imagined the Jesus character.
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Romans putting "King of the Jews" on the cross was probably be a sarcastic statement about Jesus and the Jewish belief in there being a Messiah. Many of the latter believed that the Messiah would likely be a warrior-king like David, which Jesus was clearly not, in the physical sense at least.
     
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  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Nevertheless it remained there. When Pilate questioned Jesus, some of the conversation went like this: (Mark 15) So Pilate put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” In answer he said: “You yourself say it.” So Jesus knew what Pilate was discerning. Pilate, of course, was quite the political character, but he wouldn't have asked Jesus to affirm that accusation if he did not figure Jesus was special. But being the political character he was, he gave in to the expedient decision.
     
  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Not until many years later, as discerned as a warrior from heaven. (In Revelation)
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Jesus followed the Law. He obviously did not practice or agree with many of the teachings of the scribes and teachers at the time.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Revelation" is from a book not found in Judaism, thus what I was referring to was what was the prevailing Jewish view back then, which would explain why the words as such were put on the cross by the Romans. It also fits into the words they used when tainting him.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Which I take as a rather sarcastic response back to Pilate, such as being quite similar to "So you say;)". Obviously, Pilate did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah nor as being a literal "king of the Jews".
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Christianity began as a Jewish sect. I believe that early Christianity was like messianic Judaism. Some messianic Jews say that they havent become Christians, some people say that messianic Jews are Jewish Christians. Some people who converted to Messianic Judaism even describe themselves as Messianic Gentiles.

    Both Christianity and Judaism came from God. I dont agree with name it and claim it theology or the Talmud or rabinnic Judaism, but I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Judaism came from what God gave Moses.

    When Christianity was spread it became less Jewish.
     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus followed G-d's Word revealed on Moses. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  16. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Ok. Meantime, though, Jesus did respond to John in the book of Revelation. Plus he spoke of his coming again. The four horsemen is one portrayal. And Jesus went beyond some traditional judaistic views, regardless of one's take on whether he was a die-hard jew or not. Since Jesus as personally seen or described in the Tanach is not in the writings prior to the gospel accounts, what's the point in discussing how Jewish Jesus was, is that how you figure? John, the writer of revelation, was a believer in Christ. He died before the advent of Constantine. He believed in Jesus. Jewish or not, John heard from Jesus in a revelation. While I am pretty sure John did not wear a Jewish star around his neck, he believed in and followed Jesus.
     
  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    He knew the charge to put him to death wasn't true. Going by what you say, the Jewish religious leaders didn't believe Jesus was a king either. But Pilate said he wasn't a jew. So...? (John 18)
    "priests handed you over to me. What did you do?” 36 Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him: “What is truth?”
    After saying this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them: “I find no fault in him."
    Pilate realized what Jesus was saying about his kingdom was not the same as the present government on earth at that time. And like many others, Pilate couldn't figure out what was true. But he knew Jesus was not guilty of the politically induced religious type charges.
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Good question.
    Berean Study Bible (Matthew 5:17)
    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them."
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Jesus not only followed God's word, he prayed for God's name to be sanctified, or hallowed, or made holy. "Let your NAME be sanctified," or Hallowed be thy Name. He did not break the law.
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Rabbinic Judaism isn't just from the festivals found in the Bible it's also the traditions of rabbis.
     
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