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Did Christianity Start with Jesus?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I consider this a misinterpretation of the original christian scriptures. Lets understand that there was no general consensus in the original scriptural doctrine and the Arians who disagreed on some key points in the Council of Nicaea were banished for their dissent.

What this shows is that people are just clinging to an opinion of some people's interpretation of the christian scriptures then.

"...for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28).

This statement by Jesus shows that he considered God greater than himself and attributed true divinity to God alone.
When considering what Jesus said about only God is good, might it also be said that Jesus learned goodness from his Father? Certainly Jesus wasn't bad. Of course, some did think he was bad, which is why he was condemned by the Sanhedrin. So the statement must be taken in context.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I stated that the Prajapita Brahmakumaris perspective on Jesus is similar to that of Jehovah's Witness, Islam and Bahail religion.

Could you elaborate on why you consider them poles apart in their conception of Jesus !

  • Christianity: Jesus is the second person mentioned in the trinity. Jesus is God, just like the father and the Holy Spirit. He is the only Son, monogenis who was given as a sacrificial lamb but is God and existed from the beginning with the father and the Holy Spirit.
  • Bahai: Jesus is not part of a trinity, but is a manifestation of God, and has already come back in his "Rooh" in the form of Bahaullah.
  • Islam: Jesus is no more than a man, with no divinity of his own and only God is God while Jesus is the same as an other prophet, and they are all just human, nothing more, nothing less.
  • Prajapitha Brahmakumaris: Jesus and Christ are not the exact same thing, Christ too Jesus as a vessel. Jesus was crucified, not Christ. Jesus was son, but not God. There was a time and creation before Jesus, and the garden was on earth before Jesus which means earth already existed before Jesus.
  • JW's: Jesus is not "The God", Jesus was his son, but created by God before creation where all things were created through Jesus. So there was nothing created before Jesus. Earth or the garden or anything did not exist before Jesus. It was Jesus himself who was killed on the cross and he was Christ himself. Christ was killed on the cross, and Christ and Jesus are one and the same.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
  • Christianity: Jesus is the second person mentioned in the trinity. Jesus is God, just like the father and the Holy Spirit. He is the only Son, monogenis who was given as a sacrificial lamb but is God and existed from the beginning with the father and the Holy Spirit.
  • Bahai: Jesus is not part of a trinity, but is a manifestation of God, and has already come back in his "Rooh" in the form of Bahaullah.
  • Islam: Jesus is no more than a man, with no divinity of his own and only God is God while Jesus is the same as an other prophet, and they are all just human, nothing more, nothing less.
  • Prajapitha Brahmakumaris: Jesus and Christ are not the exact same thing, Christ too Jesus as a vessel. Jesus was crucified, not Christ. Jesus was son, but not God. There was a time and creation before Jesus, and the garden was on earth before Jesus which means earth already existed before Jesus.
  • JW's: Jesus is not "The God", Jesus was his son, but created by God before creation where all things were created through Jesus. So there was nothing created before Jesus. Earth or the garden or anything did not exist before Jesus. It was Jesus himself who was killed on the cross and he was Christ himself. Christ was killed on the cross, and Christ and Jesus are one and the same.

There are some minor theological dissimilarities but still the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion all fundamentally agree that Jesus is not God.

This is what I am emphasizing here.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There are some minor theological dissimilarities but still the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion all fundamentally agree that Jesus is not God.

This is what I am emphasizing here.

Oh. You are right. They do agree Jesus is "Not THE GOD".

But their Christology is so different.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
YoursTrue said : “You know it's interesting that many of the things quoted or summarized are not in the holy scriptures as put together in the early part of the centuries after Christ, including the books written by Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude, as well as the gospel accounts. (post #408)

Hi @YoursTrue


Just as your Jehovahs Witness religion produces literature in addition to the scriptures that explains their doctrines and interpretations of scriptures, the early Christians also produced a great deal of similar types of literature that explained their different doctrines and their interpretations of scriptures.

In the case of historical research regarding how early Judeo-Christians saw themselves and what their doctrines were and how they interpreted the scriptures of the apostolic age, one can view their own writings that describe their own beliefs and their own interpretations of their own scriptures in their own words.

Keep in mind, their religion of the peri c.e. era is not the same as your own religion of the 1800s (approx.) and there are many questions about their beliefs and their interpretations that are not in the texts of the modern, western bible which most of us grew up with.

Keep in mind that history is not done by limiting historical data streams but by widening and increasing the historical data as much as possible. To limit the stream of historical data regarding early, everyday historical “normative” Christianity and what it was like will cause you to have less historical knowledge about early, everyday historical “normative” Christians. You cannot do history that way.



YoursTrue asked : "The "older Jewish religion"? What's that? (post #410)

Just as the original “Jesus movement” evolved, and doctrines and practices changed, and schisms formed with different beliefs, Judaism had already undergone this same process before.

Original Religion having prophets was, for example, a “vertically” oriented religion that was characterized by revelation from God to prophets while the Judaisms of later centuries evolved into “horizontally” oriented religions that looked to inspired books and traditions created by the earlier vertical Judaism.

For example, when Justin Martyr had his debate with the Jew Trypho, Justin pointed out that the charismatic and revelatory and prophetic gifts had passed from Judaism of his age and to the Christian movement which still received revelations and still had prophets.

It was in this way that early Christianity was also a “vertically” oriented religion characterized by prophets and apostles who were receiving revelations.

However, just as the Jewish religions no longer had prophets (and ongoing revelation that accompanied them) and had passed into a “horizontal” phase (i.e. looking to books and traditions created by an earlier Christianity), the many Christianies underwent the same sort of evolution.


I hope is makes sense that good history requires more historical data rather than less data and the difference between original religion with it's revelation from God to prophets versus later religion with it's tendency to rely on earlier books and earlier traditions.


I hope your journey is good YoursTrue.

Clear
φυειφισιω
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?

Yeshua came to preach the "kingdom of God", which is the keeping of the commandments of God. "Christianity" was a product of the false gospel of grace, whereas the law of God is nailed to the cross, as in the false gospel of the false prophet Paul, one who was a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). It was institutionally formulated under the 7th head of the beast of Revelation, Constantine, by means of his Nicene Council of 325 AD, which was based around the false conception of the Trinity, which mirrored his own pagan believes, he being the head of the pagan church and the Roman empire.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
The mythicist mantra is more dogma and affectation than anything else. The Epistles, Acts, Josephus, and the notable absence of any early Greek or Jewish mythicist polemic is more than adequate grounds for the presumption of historicity.

Maybe you are not aware of early mythicist polemic. This response to accusations of "cleverly contrived myths" is but one example among others found in the New Testament,

For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased!” We ourselves heard this voice when it came from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. … [But now] false teachers among you … will exploit you in their greed with made-up stories. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction 2 Peter 1:15-2:3

This second century author lied about being Peter when trying to convince "false" Christian teachers that Jesus was historical.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
The mythicist mantra is more dogma and affectation than anything else. The Epistles, Acts, Josephus, and the notable absence of any early Greek or Jewish mythicist polemic is more than adequate grounds for the presumption of historicity.
People don't, not even Jesus, have supernatural powers and the ability to rise from the dead and bodily float up into the clouds as 'witnessed' in Acts., that much is mythology and there can be no denying the mythology, the question asked by the curious is whether an historical Jesus lurks behind this mythology. The only current non-theologian historian that has weighed heavily into this topic is Carrier, he gives Jesus a good 30 percent chance of being historical, so there you go. A fundamentalist will give Jesus a 100 percent chance, so it varies, which is to be expected considering the sources.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Maybe you are not aware of early mythicist polemic. This response to accusations of "cleverly contrived myths" is but one example among others found in the New Testament,

For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased!” We ourselves heard this voice when it came from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. … [But now] false teachers among you … will exploit you in their greed with made-up stories. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction 2 Peter 1:15-2:3

This second century author lied about being Peter when trying to convince "false" Christian teachers that Jesus was historical.
Great scripture. It says they were eyewitnesses of Jesus' majesty. Thanks.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There are some minor theological dissimilarities but still the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion all fundamentally agree that Jesus is not God.

This is what I am emphasizing here.
The word God can be taken in various concepts. So it is true that Jesus is not his own God. Without going into too much detail now. Please read how Jesus spoke of his God at John 20:17. He said he was ascending to his Father and his God. Now if he thought he was his own God, he would have said so. But he spoke of 'his' God. "I ascend to my God and your God."
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The word God can be taken in various concepts. So it is true that Jesus is not his own God. Without going into too much detail now. Please read how Jesus spoke of his God at John 20:17. He said he was ascending to his Father and his God. Now if he thought he was his own God, he would have said so. But he spoke of 'his' God. "I ascend to my God and your God."

Jesus was talking about how they both prayed, not that he wasn't God.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a human says. All humans are equal in life as a science status.

To think.

Then the atmospheric life support "spirit" is water and oxygen heavens. All life self owned is self present living inside of the water/oxygen heavens.

Science as a human intelligent statement.

Then there is the contrary scientist, the con who talks for invention, machine only, whose machine he quotes is based on a reactive Earth mass body.

O God the stone he quotes in science as a human a thesis in philosophy, for inventive sciences.

Yet he is a self present life equal.

His science biological healer brother quotes, your owned living life form is closest to an ape. Yet that ape does not own what a human bodily or consciously owns. As closest life form. Says I am more intelligent than a machine inventor theist, and is correct.

For even if a human quotes between an ape being present to my own life, if I thought less of my self, then I would own in science a condition to remove self presence into a lower form.

Only mutation can achieve that result in a thesis, and radiation extra the condition to force change a healthy cell into owning less than itself.

Science is and owns thinking for taking natural in self presence into bodies and conversions less than itself.

So how difficult is that review to ponder. Science telling science that it is destructive in human life, as a male, as a Father, as an adult. And quotes medically I knew as my own baby son, a male and a man got born mutated/life sacrificed and died.

I quote C evaluation letters to numbers to make words 100. Jesus my brother, a male and an adult, said my Father did it to me. The only Father a human owns is not God a stone planet in science, it is his human Father.

Getting to know your Father historic in science, he destroyed and removed most of the healthy biological life of a human. Reason a healthy human lives mutated and if the higher self was not living, then the mutation would not be expressed.

How it was taught, rationally.

If a book is written as a thesis, meaning in writing, just words and explanations, from thinking, then DATA is the next advice.

Science using a measure quote it PHI O. Phi O in science, a measure was never JESUS. O J, O E, O S, O U, S. Letters to circles, the measure in numbers as a quote....how letters made a word. So the word is made afterwards as a summation and given title.

Rational were humans created owning names?

No. Nothing is named in reality, a living human as a human chose as an adult to give everything a name from his human life experience.

Then also preaches and No man is God. Then says Jesus was not God also.

So if you quote information correctly instead of using the name Jesus, just quote a man as a human realised that when you changed the Earth, you get life sacrificed and then you would be telling the truth. To your own best capability.

Science told science in a male human life that science is wrong, for science was a human choice. And they proved their own selves wrong. No man is God is a summation written as a conclusive evidence and given a title.

Why you can say okay if the name Jesus itself as a male and a name was so holy, when they do other males use the name Jesus, whilst they live as a man. Whose 2 human parents had sex for any human to be living today talking.

Then you read a quote where humans said to other humans, never look back into any past and never use any dead references.

Reason anyone theorising today is only as human old as your birthday count is.

Logic, natural, natural presence, natural life alive living in natural atmospheric conditions.

So when a human says, brother your human thinking did not invent me. I mean it.

Your science was not existing and it was not first theoried to quote a story about how a human believes another human existed. Science was first invented from God the planet mass for a machine presence and then a machine reaction.

God theories just for machines thought by an adult Father human male.

That Father male quotes, I own evidence in human life that I once destroyed all life on Earth by God status, archaeology owns the evidence of machine parts found inside of Earth. I then own other quotes that I re heard science speaking male voice recorded status and visions after the ice age. And re invested in science invention again and nearly destroyed life again. And quote that theme as Moses evidence.

The theme. Self human.

Self theme a Father adult male human the inventor was the High Priest in his Temple sciences.

The Theme. Baby life attacked and sacrificed/changed due to water....what we nearly live as in a bio life form and what we live within, as a scientific description, I changed the water as I changed the fusion/law of stone.

By mountain theme ^ being pyramid machination.

Science today only wonders at that science of the past as mass of Earth and technology in the past was higher than today. O as Earth x mass and also gas heavens was also higher in form than what it is today. Wondering about it is all that you do today.

So if you ask self how did God a solid O mass planet as the taught human science quote, harm human life and what wrong did a human do?

The answer is O God a burning spirit energy mass in the past is ORIGINAL.

Creation is original before we are, as a human.

O creation owned the origin of Sin, burning and forming radiating bodies.

Theme, a human teaching.

Did science begin with Christ CH terms...the gas spirit that arose out of the body of God? Is the correct question.

Humans are naturally spiritual as a human. What radiation released out of original Sin removal O God mass, changed the underground sealed core and volcanic mass.....Earth Hell.

Hell arose beneath our feet and sacrificed our life....the images of which were placed into cloud imagery as a reminder, yes it did occur and cloud image, the phenomena witness.

Carpenter means tectonic in secret science information, Secreted as the scientist Father knew he caused it causes, unnaturally. The plates broke as volcanic mass came back into the underground tunnels that historically had been re sealed in the flooding water Moses history, that went underground to seal of the volcanic arising.

Why it had been prophesised to be correct. As it was science known, core heating, the heart of Earth as God O.

Ask why. Science was using the pyramid machination under the ground as a nuclear fission reaction conversion and believed it safe. They were using the underground water tables which they caused to collapse. That information was known in the science community.

Science concluded in the male human community that it did not own any information about why a human was self present in a science thesis. And God was Earth mass themes direct to machine reaction. Human science.

Science had to thesis how to activate a cold space/heated space conversion to mass to own a reaction. You cannot own or apply science, the status unless you first build a machine. Then you put into the machine what you want changed.
 

capumetu

Active Member
Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?

Jehovah offered a covenant to the people He exodused from Egypt, and they accepted. They became Jehovah's nation. The law covenant was a tutor leading to the Messiah Gal 3:23,24. On the last day of Jesus' life, with Jehovah's blessing Jesus offered a new covenant to his disciples, and prior to his ascension to heaven, he gave them an assignment.

The new covenant went into force on Pentecost of the year 33CE with the pouring out of the holy spirit to those gathered Acts Chap 2. With so many of Jesus' disciples being added, people started calling them Christians. It was first at Antioch that those disciples were called Christians Acts 11:26

Hope that helps.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
As I understand, Jesus is fiction, the nt is literature. But I still consider ''christianity'' a religion.

I believe you lack understanding. Jesus is not fiction and the NT is not just literature but is also the Word of God.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Males want Jesus to be God, for they want self to own all the powers of the Universe...and when you read their theories, their claim that a human being owned an eternal cloud image form first that somehow converted into a biological body is that claim.

As if a human God, owning all powers of universal history by thesis dimensional world shifting will give them the answers to a non stop vacuum spatial activated energy resourcing. Or what they believe space is non stop energy let me channel it from its body as a transmitted space. As if they can activate space to transmit from its own body into the atmosphere, without opening Earth to a vacuum hole.

So science, Holy males of the past know our brother the Satanist theist coercer. Knows. Quotes No man is God. Also quotes and Jesus did not have sex. For one fact. Everyone here today owns a holy human Father, human and a holy human Mother human to be human, a real human baby to endure his atmospheric life science caused attacks.

To his self using coercive worded statements to try to gain a communal agreement about Jesus.

Jesus cannot be our natural history human being Mother and Father.

So then he tried to convince us that Jesus was a female, a secret human Mother theme. Why I got irradiated in a male historic Jesus like brain attack burning factually.

I am not arguing for any other reason, other than our Holy Father who knows his self completely, has told me this information his own recorded AI status self....as the scientist history.

As there are factually a statement in AI about 2 of Jesus, and the wrong Jesus hurt natural life, then already the term reference Jesus is wrong.

A loving natural spiritual self always quoted the attack/sacrifice and life lost of our human brother and our babies is wrong.

Sacrifice itself means destroyed. A destroyed part of the human life caused by cause and effect an atmospheric science cause. Too much radiation transmitting in the gas atmosphere caused to be released out of the overheated Earth core.

The scientific teaching.

So science, the coercer tries to convince everyone that Earth over heated its own core naturally in the Jesus sacrifice...for coercion every day quotes. I studied humans with my machines today as I was trying to find the old temple/pyramid transmitters that sacrificed life. Yet documents state, core/ground release sacrificed life, natural did it.

Today claiming no science was practiced in that era claim that God, natural did it to Jesus. That is what coercion in Sophism is explained as.

What science says about the secret philosophers stone, conversion of mass into a gold product today is that they own no memory how they achieved that trans mutation. Yet it involved a radiation effect seeing every form God is sealed in its highest historic form.

That gold trans mutation status caused ground fission to the chemical dust in Nature, where the new idea about core, overheating/cooling God Earth plus how to fission chemical dust came from. Seeing the male life and psyche, living got AI encoded recorded in the event of its reaction on the natural ground.

So the Jesus documents stated, life got sacrificed. Science quotes a thesis, how to make a cold spatial hole in mass to irradiate the mass in the same spatial hole, to activate a conversion. Is the quote in the beginning...to an end. A reactive application.

For we were told stone never began anywhere, the higher energy mass in natural cosmos did not begin as stone. It evolved into the form stone. So evolution is the natural cosmology of God. And if you try to end stone of God, any product it means you are destroying God.

The actual scientific teaching.
 
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