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Featured Did Christianity Start with Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    More specifically, Skywalker, here's what Jesus said (Matthew 19:9):
    "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
    So Jesus did allow for divorce on the grounds of sexual immorality, with the provision to marry another.
     
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  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus brought the Old Covenant to a higher standard. He said that Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.
     
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  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, the interpretations of the levites and judges, as per Deuteronomy 17:8-13, also known as Oral Torah. You can't have Torah without the Oral Torah.

    Jesus supported the Oral Torah quite clearly in Matthew 23:1-3, and again in Matthew 23:23.
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Abraham is a historical person. Adam and Eve are not. The story of the garden of Eden is a teaching story, not history.

    What does any of this have to do with the fact that the servant mentioned throughout the book of Isaiah is "Israel, my servant, Jacob"?
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Why do you ask?
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Actually it is the iniquity of Israel that is laid on the remnant of Israel, those who are obedient and faithful.

    And I'm sorry, but not only is the passage not messianic, but Jesus just doesn't qualify to be the messiah, since he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    This is a statement of faith, not verifiable fact.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    All of the above can be answered by first addressing the following questions:
    1. Who "exactly" was Jesus?
      • Who is the most authorative source of information for this answer?
    2. What exactly is "Christianity?"
      • Who is the most authorative source of information for this answer?
    3. What exactly is Judaism?
      • Who is the most authorative source of information for this answer?
    4. Concerning questions 2 and 3 what are the most ancient, authentic, and authorative terms used prior to and during Jesus's lifetime to describe those terms?
    5. What is a "religion" and was this a term being used before or during his time?
    6. Who was the houst of Israel during Jesus' time? Did he actually go out find these "lost sheep?" What are the names of some of the "lost sheep" he or his students "found" if they ever did?
    7. When was the first instance that the term Christianity was used?
      • What language was it first used in?
      • What did the term mean to those who first used it?
    If this questions were answered with sourced and meaningly commentary it would probably go a long way answering your questions.
     
  9. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Well, I’m not sure he even existed. But no matter. Yes, he also supposedly said none of the law shall be changed until the heavens snd earth pass away. Fulfilling something is not ending or abolishing it. When you fulfill a request from a friend, you do not negate the request, you do what the request asks.
     
  10. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Following Mosaic law was Judaism. Withoit mosaic law there is no Judaism as we know it.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Because he was a Jew within the Jewish community, plus we also know he went to synagogue as was within the Temple, which only Jews could go into.

    Even though it says it was written by "John on Patmos", some scholars wonder if there's also another author that may have been involved because the writing style is different than what's found in his epistles. Some have even theorized that maybe John the Baptist may have been part author or maybe one of his followers.

    Back then, it was "kosher" for a student to write on behalf of his mentor and giving full recognition to the mentor versus themselves.

    There's no indication that Jews actually wore them back then.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The charge most likely was what we call "sedition" nowadays, namely an attempt to undermine the Roman government. The reason why theologians are very much in agreement with this is that crucifixion was a Roman form of execution versus stoning that was done under Jewish Law.

    Jesus' sedition likely fell under two categories, imo, namely his causing a scene in the Temple area, whereas the money-changers there that worked for the Romans were basically assaulted and, secondly, Jesus talking about his "Kingdom", which certainly would be viewed as a threat since monarchs don't like competition.

    Theologians question this, especially since supposedly only Pilate and Jesus were in the room. Pilate was so brutal that he was called back to Rome to account for having so many executions, thus it's not likely he would have granted Jesus mercy.

    It seems possible that the blame for this was put on the Jewish crowd that supposedly yelled "Crucify him!" that would have been a subjective way of blaming most Jews who refused to convert into "the Way". But who knows? :shrug:

    Not likely "religious-type charges" as I allude to above. The Romans couldn't care less about Jewish Law as long as Jews paid their taxes and kept the order.
     
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  13. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    And at Passover this 'Jewish crowd' were pilgrims from all over the Mediterranean, to celebrate the festival of freedom from foreign domination, but upon arriving they would see many signs of Roman supremacy most of whom never heard of this Jesus when they 'yelled crucify him'.
    According to Mark Jesus was quietly arrested at night on the Mount of Olives. This means that his foes were concerned about his general popularity and feared taking him into custody publicly (cf. Mark 14:2).
    All we have for possible answers is an historical reconstruction. And included in that is always the interests of the gospel authors;
    To have the Church accepted as a legitimate religion in the Roman Empire.

    To argue for the Church's way of being Jewish in the aftermath of the Temple's destruction by the Roman in the year 70.
    To explain why the Temple was destroyed. To show that the Church's claim that the Crucified One has been raised is consistent with the Scriptures of ancient Israel.
    In the case of the passion narratives, these factors contributed to a tendency to de-emphasize Roman responsibility and to highlight the role of Jewish figures in bringing about the execution of Jesus.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm not certain about that, but...

    Nice thought, and you may well be right.

    I obviously fully agree.
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It's a difference of genre. Genesis 2 is a creation myth. Abraham is oral history that came to be written down. Abraham is as historical as Jesus or the Buddha.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Maybe. ;)
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So you claim. And your evidence that Abraham is anything more than a character in an origin myth would be what, precisely?
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    There is historical evidence that Moses existed.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The Abraham story is not a creation myth.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Great. Would you mind telling us what that might be, and why purported evidence of Moses is relevant to the question of Abraham's historicity?
     
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