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Did Christianity borrow practices from pagans or is it the other way around?

Dubio

Member
It's hard to find a reliable resource of who borrowed from who. Apologists claim that the pagans borrowed from Christianity and visa versa. How can the average Joe like me find a trustworthy source.

For example, God commanded Moses to sacrifice a bull so that the blood will wash away sins. Then there was the Egyptian practice(Horus) of slaughtering a bull for the same reason.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
The biggest influence on Christianity may be the neoplatonic philosophy of the Logos being the mind of God. God being entirely separate from man and unknowable, God thinks of the material word, and that idea becomes material. The Logos becomes the link between the material wold and the unknowable God. The Logos is at once separate from God, but a part of God. This makes the Logos both eternal and created.
The competing philosophy that the Logos was entirely created as a separate entity from God as mediator between God and the material world influenced the theology of Arius (The Arian faction of the early Church).
These philosophies were being discussed and debated in the pagan Universities of Greece long before Christianity gained its foothold in Rome.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Given Paganism existed before Christianity, the answer seems blatantly obvious to me.

That's not to say the exchange didn't go both ways with time, but any new religious movement borrows from the foundation it rose out of. Monotheism developed out of a prevailingly polytheistic (Pagan) culture, so obviously it was influenced by the dominant culture and way of thinking. Similarly, Neopaganism has obviously been influenced by monotheistic thinking (as much as some Neopagans might like to deny that) because that is the prevailing cultural environment the new religious movement developed in.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's hard to find a reliable resource of who borrowed from who. Apologists claim that the pagans borrowed from Christianity and visa versa. How can the average Joe like me find a trustworthy source.

For example, God commanded Moses to sacrifice a bull so that the blood will wash away sins. Then there was the Egyptian practice(Horus) of slaughtering a bull for the same reason.

God warned the Israelites not to "learn the way of the nations at all, and do not be struck with terror even at the signs of the heavens, because the nations are struck with terror at them. For the customs of the peoples are just an exhalation." (Jeremiah 10:2,3)
Far from borrowing from pagan ideas, Jehovah commanded his people "to remove the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah." (Joshua 24:14) When some Israelites tried to combine Jehovah's worship with Egyptian calf worship, Jehovah swiftly indicated his great anger at this. (Exodus 32:7-10)
Repeatedly throughout their history, the nation of Israel turned to pagan practices, and God repeatedly punished them for this.
I believe the early Christians followed closely the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. It was after the death of the apostles that a great apostasy from true worship occurred, just as warned about by Jesus and the apostles. (Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) And it was then that an apostate form of "chrisianity" fused with pagan ideas from Greek thinking and philosophy. This unholy alliance, I believe, led to such doctrines as the trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire, none of which are taught in the Bible.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
It's hard to find a reliable resource of who borrowed from who. Apologists claim that the pagans borrowed from Christianity and visa versa. How can the average Joe like me find a trustworthy source.
Diffusion works both ways. Christianity itself greatly developed in the Roman world. It competed with various philosophies and religious cults and similar traditions can be traced. One thing which is overlooked and is very interesting, is not necessarily the things which Christianity borrowed from the pagan world, but how it played on pagan ideas.
For example, we could say that Jesus turning water into wine is an imitation of Dionysus the god of wine. Or we can understand it to mean that the gospels writers wanted to show the superiority of their god-man over a pagan god.
Jesus being called the Son of God could be seen as an imitation of Caesar being called the Son of God... or it can be understood to mean that the gospels writers wanted to express the superiority of God and Jesus over the Roman imperial rule.

For example, God commanded Moses to sacrifice a bull so that the blood will wash away sins. Then there was the Egyptian practice(Horus) of slaughtering a bull for the same reason.
That's actually a bad example, because the Biblical narratives of Moses were written centuries before the birth of Christianity. What you may be talking about is diffusion of culture between Egyptians and Hebrews.
The example is hardly surprising, as numerous of regional practices moved between the cultures.
Cultures (and religions as extensions of them) do not live in a vacuum. Cultural, religious, and philosophical ideas float between cultures. At least in archaeology we call it diffusion. Or the movement of ideas over space and time.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
They more than likely influenced each other: I don't believe you can be influenced without also influencing the one(s) who are influencing you. I was stationed in Italy back in my 20s while I was in the Navy- and they influenced me and others and I know the Americans around influenced the citizens I saw and were friends with (rather poor example to the OP, but it was my experience).
 

Dubio

Member
Diffusion works both ways. Christianity itself greatly developed in the Roman world. It competed with various philosophies and religious cults and similar traditions can be traced. One thing which is overlooked and is very interesting, is not necessarily the things which Christianity borrowed from the pagan world, but how it played on pagan ideas.
For example, we could say that Jesus turning water into wine is an imitation of Dionysus the god of wine. Or we can understand it to mean that the gospels writers wanted to show the superiority of their god-man over a pagan god.
Jesus being called the Son of God could be seen as an imitation of Caesar being called the Son of God... or it can be understood to mean that the gospels writers wanted to express the superiority of God and Jesus over the Roman imperial rule.


That's actually a bad example, because the Biblical narratives of Moses were written centuries before the birth of Christianity. What you may be talking about is diffusion of culture between Egyptians and Hebrews.
The example is hardly surprising, as numerous of regional practices moved between the cultures.
Cultures (and religions as extensions of them) do not live in a vacuum. Cultural, religious, and philosophical ideas float between cultures. At least in archaeology we call it diffusion. Or the movement of ideas over space and time.

Good stuff! I have to ask you. Is there any credible archeological finds for the Exodus as in evidence of a huge number of Isrealites going through the desert or the location of Mt. Sinai?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, just to mention... if you want a trustworthy source, I would suggest avoiding the internet and instead visit your local public library. Or possibly your local professor who has a Ph.D. in a related field and asking for a good book to read on it.
 

Dubio

Member
I find the subject interesting but I don't think it leads anywhere as far as is a particular religion is "made up" or not.

I read that the Egyptians had a sacramental meal. Jesus broke bread with his disciples at the Last Supper. Other parrallels have been made similar to this example like the Three Wise Men in the Bible and supposedly that was "borrowed" from a non-Christian source.

So, although there are some parrallels, it doesn't mean that Christianity is some kind of made up religion that borrowed from the pagans. Correct?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you mean, "made up?" All religions are human-made. I don't quite understand what you're driving at.
 

FREE-of-FAITH

FREE-of-FAITH
It depends who you direct the question to. I’ve met many Christians who believe their religion to be authentic and very unique in the sense that it is the only true religion. With that said there is no way they would ever agree that ideas would be borrowed from paganism. In my opinion, since I believe religion to be manmade, both borrowed practices and stories from one another. However, that is because I don’t believe there is a supreme religion that has all the answers.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I find the subject interesting but I don't think it leads anywhere as far as is a particular religion is "made up" or not.

I read that the Egyptians had a sacramental meal. Jesus broke bread with his disciples at the Last Supper. Other parrallels have been made similar to this example like the Three Wise Men in the Bible and supposedly that was "borrowed" from a non-Christian source.

So, although there are some parrallels, it doesn't mean that Christianity is some kind of made up religion that borrowed from the pagans. Correct?

There are plenty of people who do think that Christianity is merely an amalgamation of previous religious ideas/stories/archetypes.
I personally haven't read anything about these ideas that I would consider reliable.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
It's hard to find a reliable resource of who borrowed from who. Apologists claim that the pagans borrowed from Christianity and visa versa. How can the average Joe like me find a trustworthy source.

For example, God commanded Moses to sacrifice a bull so that the blood will wash away sins. Then there was the Egyptian practice(Horus) of slaughtering a bull for the same reason.

While there are a few examples of Paganism borrowing from Christianity, (Santeria for instance), the general rule is that the new borrowed from the old. Christmas comes from the Pagan Yule celebrations and so on. If you're asking if the ancient Hebrews took from the religions surrounding them, I don't know many people who would disagree with that.
 
Paganism is older than Christianity so it must have been Christianity who borrowed practices from the pagans. Historians were able to prove that many Christian traditions, like the celebration of Christmas for example, are borrowed from the pagans.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
I'll repost what I just posted yesterday in another thread. But I will say search for Mithra. Wis worship goes back to 1500 BCE, His birthday was on th offical roman calander on December 25 until around 300 CE, and replaced by christmas by 345. His worship was at it's zenith around 275, and the last record of his worship is around 350 CE, just after christmas was first celebrated.

There are dozens of belifes of Mithra's followers that are, I can hardly say similar, exactly like those of Christians.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
God warned the Israelites not to "learn the way of the nations at all, and do not be struck with terror even at the signs of the heavens, because the nations are struck with terror at them. For the customs of the peoples are just an exhalation." (Jeremiah 10:2,3)
Far from borrowing from pagan ideas, Jehovah commanded his people "to remove the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah." (Joshua 24:14) When some Israelites tried to combine Jehovah's worship with Egyptian calf worship, Jehovah swiftly indicated his great anger at this. (Exodus 32:7-10)
Repeatedly throughout their history, the nation of Israel turned to pagan practices, and God repeatedly punished them for this.
I believe the early Christians followed closely the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. It was after the death of the apostles that a great apostasy from true worship occurred, just as warned about by Jesus and the apostles. (Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) And it was then that an apostate form of "chrisianity" fused with pagan ideas from Greek thinking and philosophy. This unholy alliance, I believe, led to such doctrines as the trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire, none of which are taught in the Bible.

While your reasoning is different from mine, (I can't believe I'm about to say this :p ), I agree with you.

ChristineES said:
They more than likely influenced each other: I don't believe you can be influenced without also influencing the one(s) who are influencing you.

My religious tradition is a perfect example of this. When Bodhidharma took his form of Buddhism (Zen) into China from India, Zen and Taoism played off of each other and borrowed from each other.

Dubio said:
So, although there are some parrallels, it doesn't mean that Christianity is some kind of made up religion that borrowed from the pagans. Correct?

For the most part. While it can be shown, quite reliably, that Christianity did borrow some ideas from the surrounding pagan nations, it does have some unique characteristics of it's own.
 
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