Did Christ really exist ?

[firedragon]

The gospels are dated to between 20 and 40 years after Jesus death, except for John's gospel which was written late in the century.

Who dated them that way?

 

[Heyo]

For example?

Different genealogies. (Probably constructed, not due to mistaken identity.)
Uncharacteristic behaviour. (Money changers, fig tree.)
Famous last words.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are trying to historically establish that Jesus lived but by that you are trying to conclude with a completely faith based assertion.

Jesus surely lived, otherwise why would Mohammad talk about him. Did Mohammad ever say that Jesus was fiction?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Different genealogies. (Probably constructed, not due to mistaken identity.)
Uncharacteristic behaviour. (Money changers, fig tree.)
Famous last words.

So you know that it the fig tree pericope was "uncharacteristic" of Jesus and, therefore, probably referred to someone else. Your insights into this Jesus character are more than a little remarkable (and, best I can tell, unshared).

Embellishment and misattribution should be expected of legend accretion. To suggest "multiple persons / mistaken identity [as] one of the simplest explanations" strikes me as comical. So, as just one example, why would "famous last words" lead you to suspect "multiple persons" rather than apologetic redaction?

 

[firedragon]

Jesus surely lived, otherwise why would Mohammad talk about him. Did Mohammad ever say that Jesus was fiction?

Thanks for displaying absolute irrelevance.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Definitely a conspiracy by a band of fanatics to deceive people. If only they could have agreed on the details of the story. Then again many say that the details are what show the stories to be witness accounts.

Yeah, it happens. If people find an idea which is beneficial to them (financially or gives them some importance in their group), then they latch on to it. Truth is not a consideration. The story may nor be exactly the same. Witnesses can be created or procured. This is what happened in the story of a Godmen, Sai Baba of Shirdi, in Maharashtra, India. It is now a major place of pilgrimage. In 2018-19, the temple received donations totalling USD 17.5 million.

Everything plated with gold - Sai temple, Shirdi - Google Search

 

[firedragon]

Paul from a time very close to the death of Jesus, and others, wrote about Jesus and believed He existed.
Scholars see parts of the Josephus quotes as being later additions.
Bart Ehrman ridicules the idea that Jesus did not exist.

But Ehrman would ridicule your idea that "Paul wrote at a time very close to the death of Jesus" too.

Pauls writings are two decades after Jesus. Ask Ehrman.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Sounds like we should reject anything they say about events that happened before they were born.

It makes their testimony third-hand at best...could be accurate...or not...or some degree in between...

 

[Augustus]

Multiple persons / mistaken identity are one of the simplest explanations for some discrepancies in the gospels.

Only if you assume that the purpose of the Gospels was to recount 'scholarly', 'objective' history, a genre that didn't really exist back then.

If seen as part of a larger salvation history that existed in a religious context they reflect the need for narrative coherence for the contemporary audience rather than 'mistakes'.

The people who later compiled canonical texts didn't care about discrepancies after all.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It makes their testimony third-hand at best...could be accurate...or not...or some degree in between...

Therefore?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

A number? What were the three best?

Going back through my Kindle library, I see about 13 books that touched on the Jesus-as-Myth theories, including several that were by more mainstream scholars who addressed some of the arguments of the myth supporters while supporting the historical Jesus. I've also read quite a few from the Jesus as real camp (various versions: Crossan, Mack, etc.). There are a couple others I've read in hard copies, or online.

Of what I've read, the two best in my opinion supporting the myth interpretation are by Price, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, and The Christ Myth and its Problems.

Ehrman, in How Jesus Became God and Did Jesus Exist? deals with many of the mythicist positions while arguing for the reality of Jesus at more than just a minimal level.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Can "he" be really said to have existed if most of what is said is untrue? If none of it is true ?

If you want to engage in a serious discussion about the Teachings of Christ you need to demonstrate that you have studied and understood the Gospel accounts.

 

[Audie]

If you want to engage in a serious discussion about the Teachings of Christ you need to demonstrate that you have studied and understood the Gospel accounts.

Cheap dodge.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Therefore?

Therefore we should approach their historical value with caution.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of what I've read, the two best in my opinion supporting the myth interpretation are by Price, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, and The Christ Myth and its Problems.

Ehrman, in How Jesus Became God and Did Jesus Exist? deals with many of the mythicist positions while arguing for the reality of Jesus at more than just a minimal level.

What I find curious is that you've mentioned the two people I like the least, only one of which is a mythicist.

Oh, well, if you actually find Price more compelling than folks like Meier, Theissen, Crossan, Mack, and/or Vermes, I guess there's not much more to say other than the fact that Price is an outlier (which, of course, doesn't mean that he's wrong).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Therefore we should approach their historical value with caution.

Yes, and I'm suggesting that this might be a good place for you to start, keeping in mind that caution is not the same as denial.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yes, and I'm suggesting that this might be a good place for you to start, keeping in mind that caution is not the same as denial.

You seem to be making some sort of assumption/assertion about my beliefs, which I have not actually stated.

But to be clear, I recommend extreme caution on the reliability/value of any ancient documents or inscriptions. Doesn't mean I think they are wrong, or right...likely someplace in between, and mostly, unlikely that we can or ever will be able to tell which parts are accurate and which parts are not.

Fortunately, I can hold in my mind the conflicting arguments of mythicists and non-mythicists, recognizing the possible strengths and weaknesses of the various arguments, without having to pick one side or the other. Especially recognizing while I have read various authors, I am by no means an expert, and cannot adjudicate between the different assertions that are dependent on detailed readings of the texts in the original...or at least, oldest versions that we have.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

What I find curious is that you've mentioned the two people I like the least, only one of which is a mythicist.

Oh, well, if you actually find Price more compelling than folks like Meier, Theissen, Crossan, Mack, and/or Vermes, I guess there's not much more to say other than the fact that Price is an outlier (which, of course, doesn't mean that he's wrong).

Whether someone is an outlier or the middle of the mainstream is irrelevant to me. As I said, I've read a number, including some of the others you mention, and whether or not I mentioned them in a short post does not mean I don't (or do) value their contributions in certain ways...

that's kind of like the argument that because Paul didn't mention many details about Jesus' life, he must not have been familiar with his life, therefore he didn't have a life, therefore he was a myth. Sure, it's an argument, and one should consider it carefully...

Okay, though: maybe our tastes don't match; no worries here. I'll still read your posts with interest.

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

Some made the claim that Jesus never existed. Even many antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are mythologized history.

Answering such skeptics, the respected historian Will Durant said:"That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel".

Is it possible that a person who never lived could have affected human history so remarkably?

The ‘Historians History of the World’ says: "The historical result of Jesus' activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognized by the chief civilizations of the world, dates from his birth." Even calendars today are based on the year that Christ was born.

Critics however point out that all we know about Jesus is only found in the Bible and that no other records concerning him exist. For instance H.G. Wells wrote:" The old Roman historians ignored Jesus entirely; he left no impress on the historical records of his time. But...is this true?
No, its not.
Respected first century historian who wrote about Christ are:
Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Flavius Josephus.

The New Encyclopedia Britannica writes: "The independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

The Encyclopedia Britannica stated" " Many a modern student have become so preoccupied with conflicting theories about Jesus and the Gospels that they have neglected to study these basic sources (the Gospels) by themselves."

What is true is that most that we know about Jesus was recorded by his first-century followers. Their reports have been preserved in the Gospels.

God himself commanded: "Listen to him".
Why would we want to listen to anyone else ?

\\"Did Christ Really Exist?"\\

I have always found this question to be entertaining in that it is s HUGE "red herring" IMHO! This is a perfect example of "perception is reality". In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter in the SLIGHTEST!!! FTR, I am on "Team Ehrman" and do feel that there was a person who was or inspired the various "Jesus of Nazareth" stories. But let's take it one step further and just assume that there was in FACT, a Jesus of Nazareth.

So... What!!!!!

Even if one can definitely prove the character exists, it does NOTHING in the way of proving the myriad of miracles and extraordinary claims that were made about him. Instead of wasting time on whether trying to prove he existed or not, why not just capitulate the fact that he DID exist then move on from there?!? The bible is a literal shooting gallery of outrageous claims that have no basis in reality nor proof / evidence to substantiate said claims.

 

[Heyo]

\\"Did Christ Really Exist?"\\

I have always found this question to be entertaining in that it is s HUGE "red herring" IMHO! This is a perfect example of "perception is reality". In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter in the SLIGHTEST!!! FTR, I am on "Team Ehrman" and do feel that there was a person who was or inspired the various "Jesus of Nazareth" stories. But let's take it one step further and just assume that there was in FACT, a Jesus of Nazareth.

So... What!!!!!

Even if one can definitely prove the character exists, it does NOTHING in the way of proving the myriad of miracles and extraordinary claims that were made about him. Instead of wasting time on whether trying to prove he existed or not, why not just capitulate the fact that he DID exist then move on from there?!? The bible is a literal shooting gallery of outrageous claims that have no basis in reality nor proof / evidence to substantiate said claims.

There once was a man of great intellect. He was a wise leader, who united the US citizens and made America great again. His personal integrity and moral was exemplary and he was the 45th president of the United States.

Can you find that man?

If there once was a preacher named Yeshua ben Jussuf in Judea around the year 30 AD who didn't perform miracles, was that really Jesus?