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Featured Did Baha'ullah read and understand Quran correctly?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, May 12, 2017.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Did Baha'ullah read and understand Quran correctly?
    Thread open to everybody, Bahai or Non-Bahai, whatever. Please
    Regards

    ______________
    The thread was conceptualized from post #5 in another thread.
    One may like to read it.
     
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  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    Baha'u'llah well before he declared His station as a Manifestation of God, as a child of tender years, would amaze his audience with His explanations of the Koran.

    He was much admired for His innate knowledge of the Message in the Koran and the ability to quote from it and any tradition in the course of a discussion.

    The Bab also able to do this.

    The question then is, who but the Bab and Baha'u'llah have Understood the Koran?

    Regards To all Tony
     
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Unless one quotes a verse or verses of Quran which Baha'u'llah read and understood correctly from the context verses of Quran which others could not understand, this will be just a claim or a story. Please quote some examples.
    Regards
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    Both the Bab and Baha'u'llahs writings contain many many quotes from the Koran given in context and each are a book in its own right, so where could you start? It can not be posted here as it is far to much information.

    Here is One passage of the Koran Baha'u'llah has explained

    Qur'an 91, The Surah of the Sun
    By the sun and its noonday brightness!
    By the moon when it followeth it!
    By the day when it revealeth its glory!
    By the night when it enshroudeth it!
    By the heaven and that which built it!
    By the earth and that which spread it forth!
    By a soul and Him who fashioned it!
    And informed it of its wickedness and its piety;
    Blessed now is he who hath kept it pure,
    and undone is he who hath corrupted it!
    Thamud in their insolence rejected their prophet,
    When the greatest wretch among them rushed up:
    Said the Apostle of God to them, "The Camel of God! Let her drink."
    But they treated him as an impostor and hamstrung her.
    So their Lord destroyed them for their crime, and visited all alike:
    Nor feared He the issue thereof.

    Here is the explanation given by Baha'u'llah (Provisional Translation to English) - Commentary on the Surah of the Sun

    A quote from it

    "...Know that the sun mentioned in this blessed surah hath divers meanings. At the level of primacy and unity, and in the city of pre-existent divinity, it is one of God's mysteries, one of his sanctuaries, stored away in His treasure hold, concealed in His knowledge, and sealed by God's own seal. No one is informed thereof save the One, the Unique, the Omniscient. For in this station the sun signifieth the Primal Will and the illumination of divine oneness that by means of its Self sheddeth its effulgence upon the horizons. Whoever approached it was illumined thereby just as, when the sun riseth, its rays encompass the world, all save those surfaces that remain veiled from it by some obstacle...."

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    There are too many to quote. Here I quote a passage of Iqan, you can find many other examples in the same Book:

    "When the light of Qur’ánic Revelation was kindled within the chamber of Muḥammad’s holy heart, He passed upon the people the verdict of the Last Day, the verdict of resurrection, of judgment, of life, and of death. Thereupon the standards of revolt were hoisted, and the doors of derision opened. Thus hath He, the Spirit of God, recorded, as spoken by the infidels: “And if thou shouldst say, ‘After death ye shall surely be raised again,’ the infidels will certainly exclaim, ‘This is nothing but manifest sorcery.’”81 Again He speaketh: “If ever thou dost marvel, marvelous surely is their saying, ‘What! When we have become dust, shall we be restored in a new creation?’”82 Thus, in another passage, He wrathfully exclaimeth: “Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!”83
    As the commentators of the Qur’án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose, they sought to demonstrate that, according to the rules of grammar, whenever the term “idhá” (meaning “if” or “when”) precedeth the past tense, it invariably hath reference to the future. Later, they were sore perplexed in attempting to explain those verses of the Book wherein that term did not actually occur.

    Even as He hath revealed: “And there was a blast on the trumpet—lo! it is the threatened Day! And every soul is summoned to a reckoning—with him an impeller and a witness.”84 In explaining this and similar verses, they have in some cases argued that the term “idhá” is implied. In other instances, they have idly contended that whereas the Day of Judgment is inevitable, it hath therefore been referred to as an event not of the future but of the past. How vain their sophistry!
    How grievous their blindness! They refuse to recognize the trumpet-blast which so explicitly in this text was sounded through the revelation of Muḥammad. They deprive themselves of the regenerating Spirit of God that breathed into it, and foolishly expect to hear the trumpet-sound of the Seraph of God who is but one of His servants! Hath not the Seraph himself, the angel of the Judgment Day, and his like been ordained by Muḥammad’s own utterance? Say: What! Will ye give that which is for your good in exchange for that which is evil? Wretched is that which ye have falsely exchanged! Surely ye are a people, evil, in grievous loss. Nay, by “trumpet” is meant the trumpet-call of Muḥammad’s Revelation, which was sounded in the heart of the universe, and by “resurrection” is meant His own rise to proclaim the Cause of God.
    He bade the erring and wayward arise and speed out of the sepulchers of their bodies, arrayed them with the beauteous robe of faith, and quickened them with the breath of a new and wondrous life.
    Thus at the hour when Muḥammad, that divine Beauty, purposed to unveil one of the mysteries hidden in the symbolic terms “resurrection,” “judgment,” “paradise,” and “hell,” Gabriel, the Voice of Inspiration, was heard saying: “Erelong will they wag their heads at Thee, and say, ‘When shall this be?’ Say: ‘Perchance it is nigh.’”85 The implications of this verse alone suffice the peoples of the world, were they to ponder it in their hearts.
    Gracious God! How far have that people strayed from the way of God! Although the Day of Resurrection was ushered in through the Revelation of Muḥammad, although His light and tokens had encompassed the earth and all that is therein, yet that people derided Him, gave themselves up to those idols which the divines of that age, in their vain and idle fancy, had conceived, and deprived themselves of the light of heavenly grace and of the showers of divine mercy. Yea, the abject beetle can never scent the fragrance of holiness, and the bat of darkness can never face the splendor of the sun."

    81. Qur’án 11:7
    82. Qur’án 13:5
    83. Qur’án 50:15
    84. Qur’án 50:20
    85. Qur’án 17:51
     
    #5 InvestigateTruth, May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  6. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Here is another one:

    'The term “suns” hath many a time been applied in the writings of the “immaculate Souls” unto the Prophets of God, those luminous Emblems of Detachment. .....
    This is the meaning of the sacred verse: “But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests,”29 inasmuch as the “Suns” referred to have each their own particular rising and setting place.
    And as the commentators of the Qur’án have failed to grasp the symbolic meaning of these “Suns,” they therefore were at pains to interpret the above-quoted verse. Some of them maintained that owing to the fact that the sun each day rises from a different point, the terms “easts” and “wests” have been mentioned in the plural. Others have written that by this verse the four seasons of the year are intended, inasmuch as the dawning and setting points of the sun vary with the change of the seasons. Such is the depth of their understanding! Nonetheless, they persist in imputing error and folly to those Gems of knowledge, those irreproachable and purest Symbols of wisdom.'

    Bahaullah

    29. Qur’án 29:2
     
    #6 InvestigateTruth, May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    "The knowledge of Him, Who is the Origin of all things, and attainment unto Him, are impossible save through knowledge of, and attainment unto, these luminous Beings who proceed from the Sun of Truth. By attaining, therefore, to the presence of these holy Luminaries, the “Presence of God” Himself is attained. From their knowledge, the knowledge of God is revealed, and from the light of their countenance, the
    splendor of the Face of God is made manifest. Through the manifold attributes of these Essences of Detachment, Who are both the first and the last, the seen and the hidden, it is made evident that He Who is the Sun of Truth is “the First and the Last, the Seen, and the Hidden.”108 Likewise the other lofty names and exalted attributes of God. Therefore, whosoever, and in whatever Dispensation, hath recognized and attained unto the presence of these glorious, these resplendent and most excellent Luminaries, hath verily attained unto the “Presence of God” Himself, and entered the city of eternal and immortal life. Attainment unto such presence is possible only in the Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of the rise of God Himself through His all-embracing Revelation.
    This is the meaning of the “Day of Resurrection,” spoken of in all the scriptures, and announced
    unto all people. "

    ......

    'Have they not heard the well-known tradition: “When the Qá’im riseth, that day is the Day of Resurrection”? In like manner, the Imáms, those unquenchable lights of divine guidance, have interpreted the verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds,”109—a sign which they have unquestionably regarded as one of the features of the Day of Resurrection—as referring to the Qá’im and His manifestation.
    Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people.'

    Bahaullah

    108. Qur’án 57:3
    109. Qur’án 2:210
     
    #7 InvestigateTruth, May 13, 2017
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Did Baha'ullah read and understand Quran correctly?

    I quote from Kitabe Iqan of Bahaullah:

    "Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: 'I am Jesus.' "
    http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/kitab-i-iqan.pdf?35d50a3f

    It is not mentioned in Quran. Kindly quote the verse of Quran where it is mentioned in Quran. Please
    Regards
     
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Bahaullah is not saying there is a verse in Quran that says, Muhammad is Jesus.
    Bahaullah states: Muhammad Himself declared 'I am Jesus'

    Else where in the same Book, Bahaullah wrote:

    "Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.”
    Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the daysprings of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number."

    These are found in the recorded traditions, but the source of these traditions come from Quran.

    For example, surah al-nisa, verse 69:

    "And whoever shall obey God and the Apostle, these shall be with those of the Prophets, and of the Sincere [Ones], and of the Martyrs, and of the Just, to whom God hath been gracious. These are a goodly band!"



    روى الشيخ الطوسي رحمه الله في كتاب مصباح الأنوار بإسناده عن أنس قال : صلى بنا رسول الله في بعض الأيام صلاة الفجر ثم أقبل علينا بوجهه الكريم فقلت له يا رسول الله أرأيت أن تفسر لنا قوله تعالى : ( فَأُولئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَداءِوَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولئِكَ رَفِيقاً ) فقال أما النبيون فأنا وأما الصديقون فأخي علي وأما الشهداء فعمي حمزة وأما الصالحون فابنتي فاطمة وأولادها الحسن والحسين عليهم السلام الخبر [٤].

    کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - بحار الأنوار - ط مؤسسةالوفاء - العلامة المجلسي"من_النبيين_والصديقين_والشهداء"


    It is recorded in the Traditions, that Muhammad with regard to this verse has said:
    Thus, I am the Prophets, the Sincere Ones is My brother, Ali, and the Martyrs is My uncle Hamzah....

    Notice, Muhammad is referring to Himself as plural of the 'Prophet'.

    There are many other Traditions as well from Muhammad and Ali. For example see the Sermon of the Gulf by Imam Ali, in which He says 'I am the Adam'.

    Bahaullah is teaching the concept of Oneness of the Prophets, and is reminding that Muhammad had already taught that as well.
     
    #9 InvestigateTruth, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I read that the same way.

    The first statement confirming Jesus and The Bible, the next statement addressing another fact.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "but the source of these traditions come from Quran."

    I don't agree with one.
    Quran could be the source of a Hadith, if correctly understood from a verse of Quran and its context verses .
    There is no such verse in Quran.
    It is against the text of Quran so it is an attempt by Bhaullah to misinterpret Quran and to mislead his followers. Please
    Regards
     
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  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    As ever, I don't think scripture is an important feature of any doctrine.

    Any religious person worth his or her salt is expected to transcend his or her own scripture, to learn to make his or her own, to explain how it is supposed to be interpreted, when it applies or fails to and why.

    If a doctrine is not prepared for that to happen, then it can hardly claim to be religion, let alone a true one.
     
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  13. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Are you familiar with the concept of Spiritual Return of Prophets?

    The reason that in that verse, Prophet, Martyr, Sincere One, have come in the Plural Form, is because, it wants to establish the oneness of All Prophets and Chosen Ones.
    So, to me, it makes sense, and the Hadith of the Prophet confirms it.
    There are also many other Quranic verses that teach unity of Prophets.
    You can see them, how Bahaullah quoted them, and explained them within their correct context.

    "These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed:
    “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!”115 For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God....
    Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.”
    Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the daysprings of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but one.”116
    Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same.
    ...."
    Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

    115. Qur’án 2:285.
    116. Qur’án 54:50.


    Also, refer to Bible, Jesus said, John the Baptist is Elijah.
     
    #13 InvestigateTruth, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  14. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And according to Islamic Traditions which I referred, Muhammad, interpreted the verse of Quran, by saying 'I am the Prophets'.
     
    #14 InvestigateTruth, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Quote from the above post "115. Qur’án 2:285." Unquote

    I quote the verse in full:

    [2:286] This Messenger of Ours believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers: all of them believe in Allah, and in His angels, and in His Books, and in His Messengers, saying, ‘We make no distinction between any of His Messengers;’ and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. We implore Thy forgiveness, O our Lord, and to Thee is the returning.’

    Baha'u'llah just quoted a portion of the verse and had misinterpreted it to mislead his followers. I have given the full verse.
    The verse means that all the prophets have to be believed in by the believers as they all have been sent by God (here Allah), so the believers have to believe in all of them, they can not believe in some and deny some or anyone amongst them. In this meaning, that they all have been sent by God, their truthfulness is not to be doubted.
    Bahaullah's case is different. Baha'u'llah claims to be god, so Baha'u'llah is not a messenger/prophet of God, and as such he is not covered in the verse 2:285/286 of Quran and is, therefore, not to be believed.

    This does not mean that I don't respect Baha'u'llah, all humans beings must be respected. Baha'u'llah has died, and his case is with God (here Allah):



    [​IMG]
    [23:117] Exalted then be Allah, the True King. There is no God but He, the Lord of the Glorious Throne.

    [​IMG]
    [23:118] And he who calls on another God along with Allah, for which he has no proof, shall have to render an account to his Lord. Certainly the disbelievers will not prosper.


    [​IMG]
    [23:119] And say, ‘My Lord, forgive and have mercy, and Thou art the Best of those who show mercy.’

    OOOO

    I don't judge anybody.
    I just hold that the followers of Bahaullah should not be misled by the misinterpretations of Bahaullah.
    Bahaullah was just a human being, neither a prophet/messenger of God, nor god, per se. He was also not a manifestation of God, more than any other human being is, as all inanimates and animates are subject to the attributes of God in some form of His mercy, that does not make them Manifestation of God per se. God, being the Creator, is different from everything created by Him.
    I just wrote the above lines out of my love for the Bahais, as humans. If they still believe in, whatever they believe in, though they are wrong, yet it is their own discretion, choice and sweet will, they are entitled to. Please
    No disrespect intended. Please
    Regards
     
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  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    In Bahai View, God has revealed Book of Iqan. God is not quoting from Quran. God is reminding those words in the context of New Book, to both remind what was revealed before, and teach more.
    If you look at verses of Quran, many of its verses are from parts of the Bible. We Bahais believe God can do whatever He wills. It was His own Book, and He wants to remind the related parts.
     
  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Quote from the above post "116. Qur’án 54:50" Unquote

    I quote the verse and the verses in the context:

    [​IMG]
    [54:48] Surely, the guilty are in manifest error and gone mad.

    [​IMG]
    [54:49] On the day when they will be dragged into the Fire on their faces, and it will be said to them, ‘Taste ye the touch of Hell.’

    [​IMG]
    [54:50] Verily, We have created everything in due measure.

    [​IMG]
    [54:51] And Our command is carried out by only one word, like the twinkling of an eye.


    [​IMG]
    [54:52] And indeed We have destroyed people before you who were like unto you. But is there anyone who would receive admonition?
    [​IMG]
    [54:53] And everything they have done is recorded in the Books
    [​IMG]
    [54:54] And every matter, small and great, is written down.
    [​IMG]
    [54:55] Verily, the righteous will be in the midst of Gardens and streams,
    [​IMG]
    [54:56] In the seat of truth with an Omnipotent King

    OOOOOOOOOOO
    One could see that there is no such verse as mentioned by Bahaullah in Quran.
    Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Please
    Anybody, Bahai or Non-Bahai, please.
    Regards


    ___________
    Note:
    I don't judge anybody.
    I just hold that the followers of Bahaullah should not be misled by the misinterpretations and misquotings of Bahaullah.
    Bahaullah was just a human being, neither a prophet/messenger of God, nor god, per se. He was also not a manifestation of God, more than any other human being is, as all inanimates and animates are subject to the attributes of God in some form of His mercy, that does not make them Manifestation of God per se. God, being the Creator, is different from everything created by Him.
    I just wrote the above lines out of my love for the Bahais, as humans. If they still believe in, whatever they believe in, though they are wrong, yet it is their own discretion, choice and sweet will, they are entitled to. Please
    No disrespect intended. Please
    Regards
     
    #17 paarsurrey, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  18. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Paar, do you know Arabic by the way?

    وَمَا أَمْرُنَا إِلَّا وَاحِدَةٌ

    al-Qamar 54:50
    The word (Amr), means, 'Cause of God', or Command.

    Look I quote for you those verses and show you, it exactly means what Bahaullah is revealing for us.

    "Truly, We created all things in measure.
    And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye.
    We have indeed destroyed many a people like you. Is there anyone who would receive admonition?"

    Look, think, how these Three verses are related.


    The above Three verses are saying, when God creates anything, including a Religion, and its followers, such as Jews, Christians or Muslims, all of them are assigned a Measure, or an appointed time, when its end comes. The Command of God, from every Messenger has always been One. They all taught Submission to God (Islam). In a twinkling of an eye, God raises a Messenger, to send down His Command. Then at that Time all are considered expired, and spiritually dead unless they obey the command of God and prove that they are true Submitters. People before you, also, were destroyed, whenever God asked them to obey and submit to the new Messenger and yet they did not submit, but Is there anyone who would receive admonition?

    Look at many other verses of Quran, when God has said He caused a people to die, and raised a new ones in their place.
    What Quran teaches is that, every people have an End, or an assigned Period. When their Period ends, God sends a New Messenger, and Reveals its command. Then when People do not obey the New Messenger, God sends down difficulties, and also Spiritually kills them.

    And now as regards to the translation you provided:

    [​IMG]
    [54:51] And Our command is carried out by only one word, like the twinkling of an eye.


    Look. The parts I have underlined, are not really, in the Arabic Quran. There is no 'carried out by... word', in the actual Arabic verse of Quran. This part, is an addition of the translator based on his personal opinion.

    See here for word to word analysis:

    al-Qamar 54:50

    Thanks for your concern. In Our View, God was speaking through Bahaullah.
    And as you also are a Muslim, you know, that, if a False Prophet invents a false Religion, then it is like a tree with weak roots, and does not remain. Moreover Allah in Quran said, if Muhammad was adding even a word from Himself in Quran, Allah will cut Him off. That tells us, God does not allow anyone pretend to be revealing the verses of God. In brief, I am saying, based on these verses of Quran, for a Muslim who is a true believer, it is sufficient to believe that Bahai Revelation is from God. I am not saying you have to believe right now, or ever. But I am just saying, I do not see any good reason from you, YET, to disbelieve in Bahaullah.
     
    #18 InvestigateTruth, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I don't agree with one.
    Even the link given by one does not translate it ''Cause of God''. So one's point is not correct. Kindly understand the Quranic verse correctly, however, there is no compulsion whatsoever for one to make one's understanding correct. Please
    Regards
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I don't agree with one. Please
    Regards

    _________________
    One my like to read post #149 in another thread, an aspect of which may have a bearing here. Please
     
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