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Deuteronomy 18:18

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Yasin, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Let me start with,
    "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that i shall command him.
    (Deut 18:18)

    This prophecy appears to be speaking about a prophet to come, after Moses (pbuh), most people i have asked as to who this prophet is? Those of Christian faith, automatically answer "Jesus" (pbuh), but i would say this is not the case.

    I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

    Respectively to all, Yasin:bounce
     
  2. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    I assume you are referring to Muhammed. Don't Muslims acknowledge Jesus as a prophet tho? My understanding is that Jesus was acknowledged and that Muhammed is his successor and the last in the line of prophets.

    Deut.18:18 didn't really tell us much, why don't you tell us why you think it is reference to Muhammed rather than Jesus?

    As for my own personal opinion, I don't see how this verse predicts anyone or anything in particular. I hold that when someone predicts a superbowl champion 2 years in advance and gives the score, then I will think they are making a prophesy.

    Saying there will be a leader rising in the future, or that there is going to be a war in the future is not a prophesy. It is as predictable as the Sunrise.

    B.
     
  3. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Why must this speak of one person? It's in the Torah, law, all it's doing is telling you what will happen after Moses.
     
  4. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I had a very long debate at islam.com, and no Muslims there can give me a convincing argument, just a propaganda to promote their prophet. But to forestall any more argument from Yasin that I am biased and in favor of Christianity, I don't believe this passage is talking about Jesus too.

    Both Jesus and Muhammad are not the one, Moses are referring to.

    Muslims tends to ignore the earlier passages in Deuteronomy 18:15, where Moses was addressing his people, telling them:

    Or

    Do you think it is logical to talk to address the current audience, ie fellow Israelites, as "brethren" or "own people", and still talk about Muhamad? I hardly think so. Like the other Muslims, I think Yasin is taking the passage out of context, when they speak of verse 18, but ignore completely verse 15. There were no Ishmaelites or Muslims present at that gathering; there were no one there but Israelites. So the brethrens or own people can on mean Israelites. So a prophet would be chosen among them. It said nothing about some distant future, like Jesus or worse, Muhammad, because he doesn't fit the description of an Israelite.

    The prophet he is referring to, is more than likely to be Joshua, who would lead them into Canaan, and ending their exile.

    I've heard other silly assumptions and assertions, here and there, within the book of Isaiah too. Again, they take a small passage, and then say this mean "Muhammad" instead of reading the whole chapters. When you read the whole chapters, you will see he is not talking about any Arab at all.
     
  5. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    No we don't. I don't automatically answer 'Jesus' at all, because He wasn't a prophet, but rather the Son of God. I think most Christians would agree with me. I'm not sure which prophet is being foretold in that verse but if it really has to be (and I see absolutely no reason why you should think it does) one that appears so much later, then I would have to plump for John the Baptist. We consider him to be a prophet, but not Christ. One thing I'm fairly sure of, though, is that it's very unlikely to refer to Muhammed. Why do you think it does?

    James
     
  6. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

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    Its me........we're all gonna die!:woohoo:
     
  7. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The apostle Peter applied this prophecy to Jesus Christ when he stated: "Moses said, Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you.’" (Acts 3:22) In fact, Jesus himself had stated: "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for that one wrote about me." (John 5:46)

     
  8. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    I think, first of all, we should understand that Islam is the only none christian faith, which makes it a article of faith to believe in Jesus Christ (pbuh), no Muslim is a Muslim unless he/she believes in him. You see Prophet Abrahim (pbuh) had two offsprings the first being ishmael (pbuh) (Genesis 16:15) and the second Isaac (pbuh). Ishmael (pbuh) became the father of the Arab nation and Isaac (pbuh) became the fatherof the Jewish nation, so they are Brethren.
    ...from among their brethren...
    So if God was speaking to Moses (pbuh), this is addressed to the Jews and therefore, from among their brethren, who are the Arabs. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) came from the same lineage as Ishmael (pbuh), and thus was the Prophet that was spoken of in the prophecy. After your response, i would like to elaborate further.

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  9. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    That's what I call "sophistry" arugment.

    What is the cornerstone of the belief of the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews? Apart from the God and apart from the laws (Torah) being available to them, I mean. Their "cornerstone" is God's convenant to Abraham, Issac and Jacob that their descendants would have the land of the Canaans as their home. The whole purpose of the Genesis and the Exodus was to bring the Israelites, not the Ishmaelites, out of slavery in Egypt and into their new home in Canaan. Unfortunately, Moses briefly broke words to God so he and the Israelites were left to wander deserts outside of Canaan for 40 years. This is to weed out the generation that were worthy to live in Canaan. So which prophet would lead the Israelites into Canaan.

    There are no Ishmaelites "among them" who served as slaves in Egypt, no Ishmaelites to share their wanderings in the deserts, and by Moses time, the Ishmaelites were idol worshippers.

    And Moses did say to the Israelites that the prophets would be chosen "among them" who are now presence. Joshua was among them, the one who was to lead them into Canaan.

    You forget that God made the same convenant with Issac and Jacob; not just to Abraham, and there were no such convenant to Ishmael.

    Moses said to the Israelites before him (in Deut. 18:15) that a prophet would be raise up "from among your own people, like myself". Moses is a Israelite, not an Ishmaelite.

    Here is the whole verse from 15-19.

    Notice what was said at the meeting at Horeb, which is Mt Sinai (verse 17) - the people said that so God said (in verse 16) "they have done well speaking thus", and it was not the Ishmaelites at Horeb what is.

    Clearly, you are taking the whole verse 18:18 out of context, without taking into consideration what is said in verse 16 and 17. Read the whole verses and chapters, Yasin. Also you must remember that the Israelites have not reach Canaan yet, so a new prophet need to be raised, once Moses is gone. A prophet was require soon to lead them, not almost 2000 years later.

    Did Muhammad lead the Israelites or Jews in his time? No. He butchered a whole lot of them.
     
  10. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yasin,

    If Muslims acknowledge Jews as "brethren" then why do so many Muslim leaders call for their extermination? Why all the animosity toward those you consider brothers?


    B.
     
  11. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

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    he who isn't moses nor christ is dr.gene ray,a prophet of overseer "wisdom" and very modern knowledge able to comprehend a vision higher than anyone else,he speaks like a tyrant with a world on his shoulder's he has been lie'd cheated and stolen from other people's beliefs,indeed satan will come to pass but it is christ who will live long past the great cubic beast.
     
  12. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Sorry i dont understand your response to the thread:bonk: , can you please explain clearly?
    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  13. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Ummmmmmmm........... I'm looking but cannot find where it is stated that there wasn't what you call "Ishmaelites" among them. I find that there is mention of strangers that sojourn among them. Could not these be "Ishmaelites"? Not saying I agree with or without what is being discussed here but just trying to understand where you get your info on no others, or at least, no "Ishmaelites" being with them in the wilderness.

    Ummmmmmmmm............ Yes, maybe, but remember who melted gold to make a calf to worship at Mt. Sinai.

    I am just trying to understand here and am in no way trying to start an argument or to offend anyone but where and in what translation does it say "who are now presence"?

    What covenant are you referring to? What does it have to do with bringing forth a prophet to show, others, things that are to come to pass? I have read of a Gentile that YAH our Elohim set-up to do His will. Why not an "Ishmaelite"? Why not anyone from anywhere, if YAH so willed it?

    What you are saying is up for debate as to which translation you are using. Different translations say different things. Mine says "brethren" and the Strong's state that the meaning of that, in that context, is.......

    H251
    אח
    'âch
    awkh
    A primitive word; a brother (used in the widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance (like H1)): - another, brother (-ly), kindred, like, other. Compare also the proper names beginning with “Ah-” or “Ahi-”.

    Deu 18:15 The YAH thy Elohim will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of YAH thy Elohim in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the YAH my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

    Deu 18:17 And YAH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

    Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    I am still trying to understand where in this that one can state such a statement when by this translation, it could mean other than a Hebrew Israelite.

    Maybe this is the problem........ Lets look at what the word "Prophet" implies using Strong's...........

    H5030
    נביא
    nâbîy'
    naw-bee'
    From H5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man: - prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.

    Where does it say in the covenant that only a Hebrew Israelite shall be a Prophet?

    Ummmmmmmm.................. Muhammad had yet been born and wouldn't have been for many, many years after this time and even the time of Yahshua.

    I am not versed on Muhammad so I do not know if "he butchered a whole lot of them" or not. Can you enlighten me with these facts that you state?
     
  14. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    This should give a clearer picture:







    a) Like unto moses

    Muslims believe in all of the previous prophets. They make no distinction between them, nor do they place one above the others in piety. However, they are all human, and as humans they differ from one another in their characteristics. Let us compare these characteristics:

    1) Both Christians and Muslims agree that both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) had fathers and mothers. They both also believe that Jesus (pbuh) had only a mother and no father. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    2) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) married and begat children. Jesus (pbuh) never married nor had any offspring. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    3) Moses (pbuh) was accepted by the Jews and to this day, as a nation, they accept him as their prophet. Muhammad (pbuh) was accepted by his people, and as a nation, over one billion Muslims around the world accept him as the prophet of Allah. Jesus (pbuh), however, was rejected by his people (the Jews) as stated in the Christian's own Bible: "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not" (John 1:11) Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    4) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were kings on Earth in the sense that they had the ultimate power of government, the power to inflict capital punishment. When the Jews brought before Moses (pbuh) the Israelite who had been caught collecting firewood on the Sabbath, Moses had him stoned to death (Numbers 15:36). Muhammad (pbuh) had similar authority. When a woman came before him confessing (with no witnesses) to having committed adultery, he gave her a chance to consider the severity of her claim and the punishment she would receive. When she insisted, he ordered her stoned to death and ordered his companions to respect her for her sincere repentance. Jesus (pbuh), however, explicitly refuted the claim that he had a kingdom on earth. When he was dragged before the Roman Governor Pontious Pilate with a charge of sedition he said: (John 18:36) "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Jesus (pbuh) would not resort to lying to save his skin. Thus, he had no earthly kingdom. Further, in John 8:1-7 we read the story of the woman who was taken in adultery by the Jews and brought before Jesus (pbuh). They were hoping to trap him by either having him contradict the laws of Moses (pbuh) by not stoning her, or by placing him in a bad position with the Roman empire by taking the law into his own hands and ordering her stoned. Jesus cleverly extracted himself from this predicament by commanding them: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." So the woman was set free. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    5) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) came with a new and comprehensive set of laws for their people. The law brought by prophet Moses was named the Judaic Law, and the law brought by prophet Muhammad was named the Shari'ah. Jesus (pbuh) however, as witnessed by Matthew, claimed to have not introduced any new laws, but to have come to renew the law of Moses (pbuh) and to have neither added nor subtracted from it. In Matthew 5:17-18 we read: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    6) Moses lead his people in a secret mass exodus from their hometown to Median in an attempt to flee the persecution of their enemies. Muhammad (pbut) too emigrated with his followers from their home town to Madinah in secret in order to flee the torture of their enemies. Jesus, however, never led his followers in a any sort of mass exodus from their hometowns . Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    7) Moses was victorious over his enemies both morally as well as physically. Pharaoh was defeated by Moses and all of his army were drowned in the sea. Muhammad (pbuh) too met his enemies in battle and defeated them all. This too was a moral as well as a physical victory. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand is claimed in the Bible to have been crucified by his enemies. Thus, his victory was only a moral one. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    8) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh), is claimed by the Christians to have died violently on the cross. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    9) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) lie buried in the ground. Jesus (pbuh), however, is claimed by the Christians to abide in heaven. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    10) Most Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is God. No Christian or Muslim, however, claims that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was God. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    11) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbuh) began their prophetic missions at the age of forty. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) began at thirty. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    12) Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) was resurrected after his death. Neither Muslims nor Christians claim that Moses or Muhammad was resurrected. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    There are many additional points that could be mentioned but we will suffice with these for now.


    b) Cannot be a Jew

    Well, is Muhammad (pbuh) the only prophet who is "Like unto Moses"? For example, what about Jesus (pbuh)? Well, we should then notice that Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew,


    "Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou (Jesus), being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?"

    John 4:9

    and the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew. We are told that in Deuteronomy:


    "And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."

    Deuteronomy 34:10


    This awaited prophet, however, must be "LIKE unto thee (Moses)." So he will come from OUTSIDE of Israel.


    c) Is from the BRETHREN of the Jews

    If this prophet can not be a Jew, then what is left? In this verse, God speaks to Moses (pbuh) about the Jews as a racial entity. The awaited prophet is claimed to not be "from the Jews" or "from among themselves" but rather "from among their (the Jew's) brethren." Who are the brethren of the Jewish nation? The Jews are the sons Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Isaac's older brother was Ishmael, the father of the Arabs. Thus, the brethren of the Jewish nation is the nation of the Arabs. This statement is further reinforced by the following definition of "Brethren" in the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible:


    "personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites."

    Muhammad in the Bible, Jamal Badawi, p. 16


    Please compare this expression with that of the Qur'an:


    "Indeed Allah has conferred a great favor upon the believers (Muslims) when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, reciting unto them His verses, purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom; although before that they were in manifest error."

    The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):164


    There has come unto you (O Muslims) a messenger from among yourselves (Muhammad, pbuh). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty, full of concern for you, for the believers [he is] full of pity, kind and merciful.

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Tawba(9):128



    http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.7.html


    Please i would ask for any one who makes dogmatic statements, to know were they get their sourses from and to be well researched before posting.

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce

    ps. not directed to May:D
     
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  15. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Since I don't believe Jesus to be a prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy, then it makes it very difficult for me to answer your questions. I have pointed out repeatedly in this topic that it is Joshua, not Jesus or Muhammad.

    a) Like unto moses

    1) You are stating the obvious here. I don't see Jesus as this prophecised prophet, so it is irrelevant to Deuteronomy passage. (I understand you are trying to make your point to May. But this point is pointless, because according to the bible, his father is God, so your statement that he had "no father" is inaccurate and misleading, unless you mean mortal father.) I believed that the passages referred to Joshua, Moses' successor, and Joshua has a father and mother.

    2) Again, Jesus is not relevant here. Begetting children or not, does not disqualify anyone from becoming a prophet. The prophet Samuel remained single and without children, so your point is sillier than your 1st point.

    3) According to the Bible and Christian belief, Jesus was never a prophet, but a Messiah or Christ. Again, I don't think the passage Deuteronomy 18 referred to Jesus. Again, another silly point. Again, I think it was talking about Joshua, whom you keep ignoring. Joshua, who succeeded Moses as leader who had ultimate power, just like a king and judge. He could execute anyone, and was unbeaten in war, when they occupied Canaan.

    My 2nd point on this point of yours, is that Moses never claimed to be king. You don't need to be king to lead people. And you forget in an earlier chapter of Deuteronomy (17:14-20), that Moses already given Israelites advice on selecting a king, and he specificially told them not choose any non-Israelite to become king. And if you are silly enough to equate prophethood with kingship, then Moses told them they can't have non-Israelite king, then they also can't have non-Israelite prophet. So your king/prophet theory basically disqualified Muhammad, because he is neither Israelite nor Jew.

    4) and 5) A new prophet, not another lawgiver. The Deuteronomy said about new prophet, nothing about introducing a new law, since Moses have given them everything. As I said before "like unto me" probably just mean a leader (and prophet) who would succeed him and bring his people home.

    Why would the Israelites need new laws? Another irrelevant point, Yasin.

    6) Median? Now you are fibbing. Moses was born and raised in Egypt.

    7) Again, you forgot Joshua, which I already mentioned in point 3. Joshua was unbeaten in wars, as he led the invasion into Canaan. 2nd point is that to be a prophet, become a warleader is not a requirement, and it doesn't say in Deuteronomy 18 military requirement is needed.

    Last point, is that you have misread the whole Exodus. The Israelites didn't fight the Pharaoh's Egyptian army, because there were no battle. The Israelites fled through the parting of the Red Sea (more accurately, it is the Sea of Reed, KJV has mistranslated the sea).

    8, 9, 10) Another pointless point, because Joshua is the foreseen prophet.

    11) That's a very stupid point. Age doesn't matter. Do you always make trivial points?

    12) Same as points 8, 9, 10.

    You seemed to make a habit of pointing out trivial resemblances between Moses and Muhammad. Ok, then let me make some trivials of why there are difference between Moses and Muhammad.

    Why didn't Muhammad lead Israelites/Jews out of exile and bring them home?

    Why didn't Muhammad part the Red Sea, and destroyed the Egyptians for the Israelites?

    Why did Muhammad killed Jews who didn't believe him to be a prophet?

    Why didn't Muhammad received the 10 Commandments? Why didn't the make a Ark of Convenant of gold?

    Why didn't God showered Muhammad's followers with manna and give them quails to eat?

    Do you see my points? You put silly comparisons, but if they are so alike, then why didn't Muhammad also follow Moses' path.

    You forget one very important point in the whole story of Moses. Moses had to lead the twelve tribes of Israel out of slavery, but since he died someone had to lead them into Canaan. Did Muhammad do this for the Israelites? No, it was Joshua. Moses only completed one half of God's convenant, which was to return the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob back to Canaan, the land God had promised Abraham and to his son and grandson.

    I have already given you my perspective to your points in b) and c), in previous posts, so I am not going to repeat myself again.

    But I will make a couple of points.

    In b) and c), in no where did Deuteronomy, exclude Israelite, but in no place did it include non-Israelite, thus Ishmaelite.

    At point c), at no point, did the Torah mentioned Jews. The books about Moses, from Exodus and Deuteronomy, often referred to the people as Israelites or people who spoke Hebrews.

    Jews did not only comes from the religion Judaism, which there were no name for this religion at this time, but we know today, Moses is its founder. Jews also referred to descendants of the tribe of Judah, which was later a southern kingdom, and later still as a Hellenistic and Roman province of Judaea.

    Ishmaelites don't not belong to the tribe of Israel (Jacob). And Arab and Hebrew are different languages with their own dialects, although they do belong in the Semitic (language) family.

    Yasin, you are reading too much in thing, and ignoring obvious signs. I am afraid that as I read more of your explanations; you will take the whole chapter and book out of context, by reading only couple of specific passages. I am afraid that a typical habit of promoting Muhammad as your prophet, but your argument is weak, and very subjective.
     
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