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Featured Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by LAGoff, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

    1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
    2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
    3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
    4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
    5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
    6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)
     
    #1 LAGoff, Oct 6, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am a Christian and I couldn't agree more. But you speak of Christendom...not Christianity. Never the twain shall meet according to my experience. Christendom is not the Christianity Jesus started. He did not come to start a new religion but to clean up the old one that had itself become corrupted.
     
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  3. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    And how about (Deut. 18:15-19)? Is that spot-on also?

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    We should use all of the Bible to reject Christianity (John, Paul, and Simon) as it completely contradicts Yeshua.
    Yeshua Elohim's father is the God Most High (Luke 1:32, Luke 6:35)...

    As Malachi 4:4-6 stated the Lord came to turn the hearts of the Children back to the Father (El Elyon - God Most High).

    The problem is Jews no longer recognize that 'El (Source) is not like the Elohim (Divine Beings)' (Isaiah 46:9) since the Babylonian Exile...

    Where they've tried to remove any form of polytheism, having seen the Canaanite Pantheon worshipped as demigods.

    Thus we need to check the original theological structure: Isaiah 46:9 paraphrased Deuteronomy 32:7-9, where El Elyon separated the nations among the Elohim, and gave Israel to Yahavah Elohim.

    When Yeshua prayed Eli Eli, people thought he meant Elijah as they no longer understood that is 'My God', where Elohi is 'My Divine Being'.

    It states in Deuteronomy 32:15 that the Jews in later times will have rejected the Rock of their Salvation (Yeshua).

    The Lord said he would become our Salvation in Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118, Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 52:10, etc..

    So Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels was correcting Judaism back to what the Bible stated; Christianity with its false christ (G5580) jesus (H5580) came about after by the Pharisees: John, Paul, and Simon the stone Petros).
    Take into account all of this deception was prophesied to happen in Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2, etc...

    It is all very clever, as comprehending it leads to Salvation (Yeshua).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #4 wizanda, Oct 6, 2019
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  5. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    Well, there's plenty in the NT, such as Unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh...; all things are permitted...(Paul): all foods are permitted (Peter), etc.

    As regards to Judaism becoming corrupted, I assume you mean the Oral Law? (rulings of the Court) Well, Deuteronomy 17 commands us to follow "judges":
    And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment. טוּבָאתָ֗ אֶל־הַכֹּֽהֲנִים֙ הַֽלְוִיִּ֔ם וְאֶל־הַ֨שֹּׁפֵ֔ט אֲשֶׁ֥ר יִֽהְיֶ֖ה בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֑ם וְדָֽרַשְׁתָּ֙ וְהִגִּ֣ידוּ לְךָ֔ אֵ֖ת דְּבַ֥ר הַמִּשְׁפָּֽט:
    10And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you. יוְעָשִׂ֗יתָ עַל־פִּ֤י הַדָּבָר֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יַגִּ֣ידוּ לְךָ֔ מִן־הַמָּק֣וֹם הַה֔וּא אֲשֶׁ֖ר יִבְחַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה וְשָֽׁמַרְתָּ֣ לַֽעֲשׂ֔וֹת כְּכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר יוֹרֽוּךָ:
    11According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left. יאעַל־פִּ֨י הַתּוֹרָ֜ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר יוֹר֗וּךָ וְעַל־הַמִּשְׁפָּ֛ט אֲשֶׁר־יֹֽאמְר֥וּ לְךָ֖ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֑ה לֹ֣א תָס֗וּר מִן־הַדָּבָ֛ר אֲשֶׁר־יַגִּ֥ידוּ לְךָ֖ יָמִ֥ין וּשְׂמֹֽאל:
    12And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel. יבוְהָאִ֞ישׁ אֲשֶׁר־יַֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה בְזָד֗וֹן לְבִלְתִּ֨י שְׁמֹ֤עַ אֶל־הַכֹּהֵן֙ הָֽעֹמֵ֞ד לְשָׁ֤רֶת שָׁם֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ א֖וֹ אֶל־הַשֹּׁפֵ֑ט וּמֵת֙ הָאִ֣ישׁ הַה֔וּא וּבִֽעַרְתָּ֥ הָרָ֖ע מִיִּשְׂרָאֵֽל:
    13And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.

    The 'judges' was the Sanhedrin and their judgements were later written down as the 'Oral Law' (the rulings of the court). They (judges and some priests were also on the Court) were "in those days" before and a little after Jesus (till the closing of the Mishna iaround 200 AD) and we are not to stray to the right or left of their rulings.
     
  6. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    The most high God (El Elyon) has a personal name (Jehova-- aka 'Lord' in English). The world now can know more fully this than in those days when God's name was nearly unknown.
    And how many ways can the OT say Jehova is one/no One beside Him, I will not share my glory with another-- and Jesus is 'another' (certainly another [personal] name)? (El, El Elyon is just a generic name for God, whereas Yeshua is a specific, personal name and so definitely in Christianity and the NT shares glory with Jehova, who is a jealous God, hence the command us to kill ones like him.
     
    #6 LAGoff, Oct 6, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    God the Source (El) of reality creates all sound, it is beyond having a name.

    The 2nd commandment states we have no image of El, and Yahavah Elohim has form, walked with Adam and Eve, sat and had dinner with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, etc.

    In Deuteronomy 32:7-9 we see the division made by Moses between El Elyon being above Yahavah, for El to give a nation to Yahavah, and the other nations to the other Sons of El (Elohim).

    David in multiple Psalms shows a distinction between Elyon (Most High - Source), 'and' Yahavah (Lord of Creation):

    2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

    There are two Psalms that refer to Yahavah as Most High King over the Earth (Psalms 47:2 Psalms 83:18), as Yahavah Elohim created Earth; reality tho comes from the Source (El Elyon).
    Yahavah is One, it created the Divine Council, and from that it created all of reality; yet we have to be specific, Yahavah Elohim is a Divine Being manifest by the Source.

    El = Source.

    When we add a H to something, like how Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah when blessed by God or we have words like Havah/Hayah - to be, to make manifest.

    El+H = a Being manifest by the Source - God breathed.

    Eloh+IM = Plural Divine Beings, i.e Archangels or the Divine Council... Sometimes used for gods of other nations; yet still meaning Breathed Beings, as they have form.

    Thus the Lord of Creation (Yahavah) is the first born from the Ultimate Source (El Elyon).

    It is easier to understand in a computer analogy the Source of reality is like a quantum CPU beyond form, manifesting everything, it can not interact with mankind directly as we are code; so it makes applications which then interact for it within its reality - Yahavah Elohim (Lord Creator Applications) is the first of these... Thus Yahavah is One with all the code of Creation.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #7 wizanda, Oct 6, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus' reference to his flesh and blood were figurative, not literal. The Catholic church turned that into something abhorrent to anyone's sensibilities. It would make Jesus into a Law breaker....something he would never have been.

    The eating of foods that were forbidden to Jews mainly pertained to Gentiles. When Gentiles began to be added (in accord with the covenant made with Abraham) Jews would probably adhere to the foods that they had always eaten, but God's law was not binding on Gentiles.

    The apostles mentioned only a few necessary things....
    Acts 15:28-29...
    "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

    All of these things were common to Gentiles, but Jews who already knew God's standards on all these things could continue as they always had..

    Yes, the Oral Laws were a misinterpretation of the Law of Moses. They added to them and skewed them all out of proportion, until they were so ridiculous, that the average person could not keep them. God never intended that his laws would become such a millstone around the necks of his people. Any wonder the people got "lost". Jesus was sent to find them and rescue them from that oppressive system. The children of God were to have freedom, not slavery to man-made traditions.

    Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees was not subtle, but neither was their hypocrisy as he stated in Matthew 23....

    "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

    This is why Jesus told the ones who came to him to listen to the Pharisees only when they read the Law of Moses...but they were not to imitate their example. The rest of Matthew 23 is a summary of their failures as religious teachers in Israel.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Interesting that a Jew can write "God' with the vowel and even the name Jehovah. 'Hasham" (the Name) is more often used instead I believe.

    The Jews stopped pronouncing the divine name before Jesus came on the scene. He said he had come to make his Father's name known. It is seen right throughout the Hebrew scriptures, but not in the English translation.
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yahavah Elohim said that he would turn his face away from them, that their doctrine would be set upside down (Ezekiel 20:25), as they've rejected his ways.

    They lost how to say it after the Diaspora, as the language has changed too much.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    ^ speaking as a Jew, this type drivel is, first and foremost, an embarrassment.
     
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  12. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    First respond to: "Deut.13:1-6?", then I may respond to Deut. 18.
     
  13. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    We are getting too far away from Deut.13:1-6.
    You say Jesus saying Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day for my flesh is the real food; my blood the real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him is symbolic. Fine. It still takes too much glory from Jehova (He's a jealous God!)-- ("I will raise him up on the last day"!)
    This seems to be just the kind of scenario that Deut.13:1-6 is talking about.
    Jehova is our King; Jehova will dispose of us as He sees fit; Jehova, Jehova, Jehova, not Jesus, not your rabbi, not even 'The Rebbe' (Menachem Mendel Schneersohn of Chabad)
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    1 Corinthians 8:6
    [One Lord Jesus Christ

    2 Corinthians 6:18
    [Lord Almighty

    Jesus is 'one with', the Tetragrammaton
     
  15. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    The Tora was written in the language of men is an accepted saying among Jews. Beyond that, we can know as much about God as an ant (an e coli bacterium) can know about us; although I assume that even without the Tora I could come to some position on 'God', but I hold that it's better off for me to have the Tora. I mean, I could meditate and come to feel like I am one with God, but knowing me, I would most likely go too far and feel like I am God and cause mischief. Although I take the position that I am God (Can God create something other than Himself?), I am -- like Psalm 23 -- happy that the Tora provides enough separation (even if only illusory) between me and God that this 'ant' doesn't have to 'want' (Ps.23 I shall not want) to move through the world with radical, gonzo Oneness-- which I have tried to do and failed miserably because I am an average man who loves his necessary illusions; and the Tora (and the OT) gives me that sweet feeling.
     
  16. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    "One Lord Jesus Christ"; Jesus is 'one with' the tetragrammaton."
    That's the problem. Jehova is the personal name of God and Jesus is a personal name. There's only room for one 'Lord' (Jehova) because He's a jealous God and will not share His glory (on that level) with anyone/thing else.
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    If rabbis are usually incorrect, then they should stop calling themselves rabbis.

    Whether called 'jesus', or not, the aspect of the Lord associated with Jesus, is traditional, and although so are the other names of god, [presumably, this means that one would not ignore that fact.
     
  18. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    The pre'existant aspect, which Jesus is associated with, in the New Testament.

    This aspect isn't traditionally considered an angel, it's a god form.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'll accept the fact that you can't form a proper sentence but, if you intend to pose as a Torah expert, at least learn how to spell it.
     
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