Determinism/Free Will

[Brian2]

I have a suspicion that we use different definitions of "free will". (And I have a sense of déjà vu.)

My definition of "free will" would probably be a will that is not forced to go in a certain direction. a will that can can go in any direction it chooses, without constraints.
God's knowing that direction is not a constraint on us freely choosing that direction. To say it is, is just an illusion.
Whatever we choose is our fate.
It is not the other way round (ie. whatever we are fated to do is what we have to do)
God knows what we will freely choose and allows that choice by us.
It is not the other way round (ie. God has chosen for us and so given an illusion of free choice)
The right way to look at it for compatibility of free will with God's foreknowledge is that God can foreknow what we freely choose and just allows that to happen.

 

[Heyo]

My definition of "free will" would probably be a will that is not forced to go in a certain direction. a will that can can go in any direction it chooses, without constraints.
God's knowing that direction is not a constraint on us freely choosing that direction. To say it is, is just an illusion.
Whatever we choose is our fate.
It is not the other way round (ie. whatever we are fated to do is what we have to do)
God knows what we will freely choose and allows that choice by us.
It is not the other way round (ie. God has chosen for us and so given an illusion of free choice)
The right way to look at it for compatibility of free will with God's foreknowledge is that God can foreknow what we freely choose and just allows that to happen.

Can you freely chose a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)?

 

[Brian2]

You (in our story) have driven over the dog knowing in advance what would happen if you drove over the dog.

God (in our story) has created the universe knowing in advance what would happen if [he] created the universe.

Just as, in human terms, if you drive onwards knowing this will lead to your driving over the dog then it's self-evident that you intend to drive over the dog,

so in God terms, if you create a universe knowing this will lead to someone aka blü 2 posting this post, then it's self-evident that you intend someone aka blü 2 to post this post.
The analogy is valid.

Knowing what would happen if He created the universe is not the same as doing what would happen. Hence your analogy is not valid.

Of course it is, because God's foreknowledge plus God's act in going ahead and creating THIS universe demonstrate unambiguously that everything that ever happens only happens because God intended it to happen.

If God had NOT intended it to happen then [he] was completely free to make the universe another way which conformed to [his] will. But NO, with perfect foreknowledge of ALL the consequences of [his] act [he] made it THIS way.

He did make it this way. He gave us free will and knows how we will use it.
You are correct, God is responsible for that, but that does not take away our responsibility in the things that we choose with our free will.

 

[Brian2]

Can you freely chose a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)?

I only have one choice, 3, and I choose it because it is the only possible choice.
But of course reality is not like that.
We have many possible choices at each turn and we do not know the right choice (which choice God knows we will choose).
In life our freedom is not taken away with a limit of only one possible choice.
Why is it not taken away?
Because we do not know the one possible choice.

 

[Heyo]

I only have one choice, 3, and I choose it because it is the only possible choice.
But of course reality is not like that.
We have many possible choices at each turn and we do not know the right choice (which choice God knows we will choose).
In life our freedom is not taken away with a limit of only one possible choice.
Why is it not taken away?
Because we do not know the one possible choice.

You have the illusion of choice. If there is only one possible future, there is only one possible choice to go into that future.

 

[Brian2]

You have the illusion of choice. If there is only one possible future, there is only one possible choice to go into that future.

There are many possible futures and we do not know the future that God has foreseen. We can freely choose whichever one we like, so our free choice is not affected by God's foreknowledge.
If you look back on the past and on what has happened due to free choice, what you are arguing is that if someone had known all the free choices in the past, before we chose them, that would automatically mean that those choices were not free.
The future is not set by forcing us to do anything, thus taking away our free will, the future is set by God knowing what we will freely choose, thus leaving our free will intact.
You want to turn "knowing what we will freely choose" into "forcing us to choose with no freedom of choice".
We do NOT have one possible path to follow when we choose the future.
We DO have one possible future however, but not by taking away our choice in the matter.
You have listened to a false argument which makes it seem that if God knows the future, we could not have chosen that future.

 

[blü 2]

Knowing what would happen if He created the universe is not the same as doing what would happen.

You appear to misunderstand. What God DID was create the universe exactly as it is, already perfectly knowing every consequence of this act.

And that's a sound example. IF you do X (drive forward, create a universe) knowing that C is a necessary consequence (run over the dog, have children murdered) THEN you intend and must take responsibility for the consequence.

Because being omnipotent omniscient and perfect you can create the universe any way you like with perfect control of EVERY consequence, and you've chosen to create it like THIS.

You've chosen to run over the dog.

 

[Brian2]

You appear to misunderstand. What God DID was create the universe exactly as it is, already perfectly knowing every consequence of this act.

And that's a sound example. IF you do X (drive forward, create a universe) knowing that C is a necessary consequence (run over the dog, have children murdered) THEN you intend and must take responsibility for the consequence.

Because being omnipotent omniscient and perfect you can create the universe any way you like with perfect control of EVERY consequence, and you've chosen to create it like THIS.

You've chosen to run over the dog.

It is very easy to understand what God did when He made the universe with beings who had free will.
You want to blame God for all the actions of those beings who have free will.
If God was into controlling every consequence then God would be responsible for everything that has happened in the universe, including all those things that those being have done,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which of course would then be things that they did not choose to do, because God was controlling everything that happened.
But the reality is that God does not control every consequence. What God has done is to look at what would happen and allow it to happen. This is the same with those things which God thinks are good things and those things which God thinks are evil things.
You are saying that an all knowing God cannot create being with free will,,,,,,,,,,,only a less knowledgeable God could possibly do that. You have made free will something that is conditional on whether someone knows the future or not.
You say that there is only one possible choice for us humans to make if God knows that choice.
You ignore the fact that there are a myriad of possible choices and we choose freely between them.
All you can see is that one choice that we do end up making. And because we end up choosing what God knows we will choose, it does not mean to you that God knows what we can freely choose, you twist it around and want to make it mean that God has decided our choices for us.

 

[Heyo]

We DO have one possible future however, but not by taking away our choice in the matter.

Can you freely chose a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)?

 

[Brian2]

Can you freely chose a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)?

Now I have a sense of deja vu.
But I feel that in many discussions here.
There is a point in many discussions where both parties become frustrated that the other seemingly cannot understand the arguments put to them.
Instead of saying "We DO have one possible future however, but not by taking away our choice in the matter." I could have said that we have many possible futures but only one that is going to be our future, and God knows which that one is going to be.
It is interesting that in the Bible it appears that God does choose to ignore or forget what He knows however. Maybe He does this so what nobody can say that God made that event happen.
I think of where God tells Abraham (after Abraham has been stopped from sacrificing Isaac) that now He knows that Abraham will not withhold even his son from God.

 

[Heyo]

Now I have a sense of deja vu.
But I feel that in many discussions here.
There is a point in many discussions where both parties become frustrated that the other seemingly cannot understand the arguments put to them.
Instead of saying "We DO have one possible future however, but not by taking away our choice in the matter." I could have said that we have many possible futures but only one that is going to be our future, and God knows which that one is going to be.
It is interesting that in the Bible it appears that God does choose to ignore or forget what He knows however. Maybe He does this so what nobody can say that God made that event happen.
I think of where God tells Abraham (after Abraham has been stopped from sacrificing Isaac) that now He knows that Abraham will not withhold even his son from God.

The gods of the bible are clearly not all knowing. In fact, I try to keep the discussion away from gods. My position is philosophical. I simply say that any universe in which perfect knowledge exists has to be deterministic and determinism precludes free will.
Free will, for me, would be the ability to decide ones future, to freely chose from different options. When there is only one future (as we seem to agree), there is only the choice of "a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)".

 

[Brian2]

The gods of the bible are clearly not all knowing. In fact, I try to keep the discussion away from gods. My position is philosophical. I simply say that any universe in which perfect knowledge exists has to be deterministic and determinism precludes free will.
Free will, for me, would be the ability to decide ones future, to freely chose from different options. When there is only one future (as we seem to agree), there is only the choice of "a natural number between 2 and 4 (exclusively)".

If the number of possible answers to choose from is limited to one (as in the whole number between 2 and 4) then there would be no chance of anyone freely choosing anything.
But why limit the number of possible answers to one when there are actually many possible choices when it come to us making decisions, and so we can freely choose between them even if that choice might be known by someone?

 

[Heyo]

If the number of possible answers to choose from is limited to one (as in the whole number between 2 and 4) then there would be no chance of anyone freely choosing anything.
But why limit the number of possible answers to one when there are actually many possible choices when it come to us making decisions, and so we can freely choose between them even if that choice might be known by someone?

Because we can't chose (given by the fact that the choice is known). We agree that there is only one future, therefore there is only one choice.

Imagine a computer game, a dungeon crawler. Lots of hallways and junctions and rooms. And imagine that the game is programmed (determined) to always give you monster A in the first room you enter and treasure #2 in the second, etc.
You can "freely" wander the hallways but you'd get monster A anyway when you enter the first room, no matter which that is on the map.
Do you think you have a choice in which room you enter? Or is that only an illusion of choice?

 

[Brian2]

Because we can't chose (given by the fact that the choice is known). We agree that there is only one future, therefore there is only one choice.

Imagine a computer game, a dungeon crawler. Lots of hallways and junctions and rooms. And imagine that the game is programmed (determined) to always give you monster A in the first room you enter and treasure #2 in the second, etc.
You can "freely" wander the hallways but you'd get monster A anyway when you enter the first room, no matter which that is on the map.
Do you think you have a choice in which room you enter? Or is that only an illusion of choice?

That scenario sounds like an illusion of choice when it comes to choosing the monster you get.
It is not an illusion of choice when it comes to which room you choose however.
But of course life is not programmed that way. With life and God's foreknowledge, the monsters could be anywhere and we would choose any door we like and God knows what we will choose.
It sounds like you have a philosophical problem with God being able to know the future without somehow forcing people to choose.
That of course would make your reasoning about the whole thing just a justification for your philosophical bias.
That would be why you and blu keep giving analogies which do not quite fit, and always show something different to the scenario given, where God knows the future even if the future is completely random.
It's just something about God which you cannot accept.

 

[Heyo]

That scenario sounds like an illusion of choice when it comes to choosing the monster you get.
It is not an illusion of choice when it comes to which room you choose however.
But of course life is not programmed that way. With life and God's foreknowledge, the monsters could be anywhere and we would choose any door we like and God knows what we will choose.
It sounds like you have a philosophical problem with God being able to know the future without somehow forcing people to choose.
That of course would make your reasoning about the whole thing just a justification for your philosophical bias.
That would be why you and blu keep giving analogies which do not quite fit, and always show something different to the scenario given, where God knows the future even if the future is completely random.
It's just something about God which you cannot accept.

As I stated above, it is not about gods. "Free will" and "determinism" are philosophical concepts, not religious ones. (They have been appropriated by religion.) As I've been told frequently by believers, the gods don't care about logic.
What I'm trying to argue here, logically, in a universe with perfect knowledge, free will doesn't exist.
Throw a god into the mix and all logic goes out the window.
Instead imagine you had perfect knowledge. Would you have free will?

 

[blü 2]

It is very easy to understand what God did when He made the universe with beings who had free will.

EITHER they had theological free will OR God is omniscient omnipotent and perfect.

The two are mutually exclusive. Choose one or the other.

You want to blame God for all the actions of those beings who have free will.

If blame is the word, see the paragraph above.

If God was into controlling every consequence then God would be responsible for everything that has happened in the universe

YES!! And that's exactly where an omnipotent omniscient perfect God finds [him]self at.

You say that there is only one possible choice for us humans to make if God knows that choice.

No, I'm saying they're not choices at all, simply the illusion of choice. They can ONLY be what God perfectly foresaw and intended 14 bn years earlier.

As I said, were theological will actually free, we could blindside God. But of course you can't blindside an omnipotent omniscient perfect God. You can only do what 14 bn years ago [he] intended you to do.

You ignore the fact that there are a myriad of possible choices and we choose freely between them.

You ignore that even if it appears to a human that there are a hundred billion options, there is in fact only one, the one God perfectly foresaw and intended.

 

[Brian2]

As I stated above, it is not about gods. "Free will" and "determinism" are philosophical concepts, not religious ones. (They have been appropriated by religion.) As I've been told frequently by believers, the gods don't care about logic.

The Bible implies free will from the beginning with the whole concept of morality and being judged for our actions. There is no big philosophical discussions in the Bible, God just lets us know in other ways and does not leave it idea open to debate. Free will and determinism are religious questions as well as philosophical questions.
But God does care about logic and wants to open our eyes to things that we may not even bother to take into consideration without belief in a God. Things that probably change out whole line of reasoning.

What I'm trying to argue here, logically, in a universe with perfect knowledge, free will doesn't exist.
Throw a god into the mix and all logic goes out the window.
Instead imagine you had perfect knowledge. Would you have free will?

That would depend what sort of being I was. Was I programmed to only do X when confronted with a situation Y or was I able to choose a path?
Why do you think I would not be able to look into the future and not only see what I would do but be able to see why I chose to do that?
If I looked far enough into the future and could see that I was a being who was not going to change then the free choices I had made would not change.

 

[Heyo]

The Bible implies free will

The Bible implies everything and its opposite. That's why I want to keep it out of this discussion, at least for now. Just from a logical point of view, free will and perfect knowledge are contradictory. How the believers get around that is another question.

That would depend what sort of being I was. Was I programmed to only do X when confronted with a situation Y or was I able to choose a path?
Why do you think I would not be able to look into the future and not only see what I would do but be able to see why I chose to do that?
If I looked far enough into the future and could see that I was a being who was not going to change then the free choices I had made would not change.

If you look into your future and your past, and you see that there always was only way you could decide, doesn't that tell you, that there never was a free choice?

Let's make a truth table:

We have one universe A that contains perfect knowledge and one that doesn't, B.

From A follows that free will doesn't exist. From B it doesn't.
Assume that were false. Then we would not know anything about the connection between perfect knowledge and free will - i.e. we couldn't have perfect knowledge. Which goes against our premise.

 

[Brian2]

The Bible implies everything and its opposite. That's why I want to keep it out of this discussion, at least for now. Just from a logical point of view, free will and perfect knowledge are contradictory. How the believers get around that is another question.

The Bible isn't needed to get around the idea that free will and perfect knowledge are contradictory. It is really from a flawed logical pov that this idea comes about.

If you look into your future and your past, and you see that there always was only way you could decide, doesn't that tell you, that there never was a free choice?

No it doesn't.
Knowledge of the future does not take away free will.
If knowledge is of events done and freely chosen from many possible choices and without the knowledge of the choice that will be made, why do you say that there is no free will just because the person was only able to choose one path from the many possibilities?

Let's make a truth table:

We have one universe A that contains perfect knowledge and one that doesn't, B.

From A follows that free will doesn't exist. From B it doesn't.
Assume that were false. Then we would not know anything about the connection between perfect knowledge and free will - i.e. we couldn't have perfect knowledge. Which goes against our premise.

Interesting line of argument.
Why do you assume that we cannot have perfect knowledge of the connection between perfect knowledge and free will? In reality it is easy to see that we can have a knowledge of that connection when we see the situation clearly and realise the free choice is being made between many possibilities and without knowledge of what we will eventually choose. It is not as if there is only one door for us to open, we have a choice.

 

[Brian2]

EITHER they had theological free will OR God is omniscient omnipotent and perfect.

The two are mutually exclusive. Choose one or the other.

Thanks but the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

No, I'm saying they're not choices at all, simply the illusion of choice. They can ONLY be what God perfectly foresaw and intended 14 bn years earlier.

As I said, were theological will actually free, we could blindside God. But of course you can't blindside an omnipotent omniscient perfect God. You can only do what 14 bn years ago [he] intended you to do.

We cannot choose anything else if God knows what we will choose, but we can freely choose to do what God knows we will freely choose to do.
The only real question is one about how God is able to do that.

You ignore that even if it appears to a human that there are a hundred billion options, there is in fact only one, the one God perfectly foresaw and intended.

That seems to a place where you go wrong. There ARE a hundred billion options. If there were only one real option then you would be right but from your own life you know there are a hundred billion options.
You deny reality to win the argument. Then you come up with the idea that if God foreknew then our free choice would be an illusion and we would only have one option.