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Featured Destiny predetermined?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Most people now agree that, something like a big bang or a similar event happened, then it caused a sequence of things to happen, which the result is our universe.

    If we think about it, non of us, chose, where to be born, which parents to have, where to grow up. We did not choose our relatives either. Even our education or job is not our own choice, when we consider, we were certainly influenced by parents, relatives, or friends what to study, and what to do for work.
    Our behavior and ethics substantially depends on who brought us up, and who were our friends, and relatives, and the environment, and school, etc.
    Thus, who we are, seems to me, if not completely, for the most part was not our own choosing.
    What do you think?
    It is like big bang, which was a initial point, that after infinite sequence of events resulted in every single one of us.

    Like the game, when you set, a number of things in a way you want. When you cause the first one to fall or move, it causes the next thing to fall or move, and so forth to the end. But you know from beginning what will be the final result.
    What is the name of this game?
     
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  2. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I don't know , I have been reading pre-Christian religious philosophy for a while , and for example , the Romans and Greeks had the Logos (which is a pre-Christian concept) , and the Norse had Fate via the Norns. So science comes back into play , and eventually starts siding with those conceptions , to a degree. Christianity , as far as I can tell, started stressing the idea of the individual , which is what I think modern people like about it the most. I choose to sort of balance on interstices between the two arguments , that is , that Fate and the past have a strong magnetic influence , but that sometimes , a person with exceptional willpower can develop the telor within. I do not believe this is easy , but nor do I believe it is always apt for the individual to take the reins control. There are times in history where you want to follow the river , and times where you want to steer for the right branch at a fork
     
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  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Do you think a person with strong will power, obtained the will power himself, or it was the result of how he/she was brought up, the influence of the relatives, friends, environment, that shaped him to be a person with strong will power? If you say, the latter, then, even having a strong will power, is not a person choosing. It was determined by environment, and possibly genetics, non of which no one choose.
     
  4. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Just as it is a challenge for a bird of prey or some such animal , to take first flight , or a young ungulate , to perhaps operate its ready legs , within a man is another challenge , which though he may take optionally , or may overlook so as to evade , naturally appears the ability to mediate where he thus may tread
     
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  5. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Member

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    Calvinists, and Super Determinists, believe everything has already happened. In which case free will is an illusion. We have the choice whether to believe this or not. Or do we?

    There's a card game, which in England is called Newmarket, that I haven't played for a long time, so unfortunately I can't remember the rules. What I do remember is, it's so engrossing that I played it for hours, with my ex wife's family, before realising that outcome was totally preordained from the moment the hands are dealt. I tried to point this out to the other players, but they wouldn't have it. Still, it was true; what each player did with his hand was entirely determined by the hands of the players who preceded him or her. Maybe our lives are like that.
     
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  6. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I think a person's passions will predetermine what they are going to be and do. So within the nature of passions one has there will also be their freedoms, and free will choices or lack thereof. However I don't think all passions are fixed and final.

    The person that can, command and rule their passions with true peace and love has achieved free will. Within the virtues is self control. Vices and evils are slavish.

    The necessities of living will predetermine things but that doesn't undermine free will.

    People that are overcome by passions are very much predetermined. But I think a person can gain understanding, knowledge and wisdom to conquer unhealthy passions. I believe in the ability to govern one's self.

    I don't buy that absolutely everything is controlled by genetics. Perhaps some people are resigned to that idea. Imo if you are resigned to any idea you give up control to the quality or lack of quality to that idea.

    I think many people will fight and struggle for inner peace and inner freedom. Many might never do so; they are resigned to the passions and ideas in their heads.
     
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  7. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Destiny predetermined?

    Always intriguing this question.

    How I see this now, there are 2 options:
    A) Destiny is not predetermined ==> nobody knows the future ==> nobody is omniscient ==> God does not exist, as HE is said to be omniscient
    B) Destiny is predetermined ==> the future can be known by those who are omniscient. God is said to be omniscient, so God can exist
    @stvdvRF
     
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  8. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

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    Fate is an abstract fact known to no one
     
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  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I will simply approach this in terms of the nature of our physical existence. Indeed future events and destiny is predetermined, but the question is to what degree. Simply Natural Laws and natural processes limit the outcome of future events, and yes human choices and decisions, but the question is 'to what degree' are things predetermined.

    The outcome of all events limited by natural processes is subject to alternative outcomes within a range dependent on the number of variables that influence the outcome that can be described by Chaos theory, which is applying fractal math to estimate the possible outcomes.. Humans are subject to the same limitations on degree of our ability to make different choices in any given situation.

    The result is 'Free Will' is not really as free as most people would like to think. Natural Laws, natural processes, and the chain of events and choices all limit the outcome of our decisions. Various philosophers have proposed variations of 'Compatibilism, which allows a degree of free will compatible with determinism. Some like Dennett give Free Will little more that 'wiggle room' in our decision making process.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=com...i57j0i10l9.6188j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. ... Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

    I propose the concept of 'potential free' no matter how limited. I believe that be far most people do not take advantage of the possibility on making choices beyond the limits that limit our choices.

    More to follow . . .
     
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  10. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    so which of his books would you recommend, if I were to read just one , preferably under 300 pages
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have never believed in predestination, but I also know that the Creator can foresee the outcome of events that have not yet taken place. I understand that to mean that if the Creator has a purpose, it will be fulfilled no matter what. (Isaiah 55:11)

    Having said that, I take into account that there is a destination and there is a way to arrive there. Whereas the "destination" is set......the route is not.

    This reveals why God's name has a significant meaning. According to the Jewish Tanakh, God's name "יְהֹוָ֞ה" means "I Will Be What I Will Be"......IOW, God can BE whatever he chooses to be, in order for his will to take place. He does not just ACT with his intelligent free willed creation, but REacts to their choices, keeping his purpose on track. It will never be derailed by anyone.

    In Eden for example, he set before the humans a wonderful life, but dependent on their obedience to his instructions. The scenario could have played out in a number of ways, each dependent on the choices made, but ultimately God's will was going to take place regardless of the method.....the end result would remain the same.

    At the end of the time period allotted to address the original rebellion, not only of his earthly children but also his angelic sons, God will bring about the fulfillment of his first purpose to a conclusion. Unlike a predetermined route, God made allowance for the decisions that all of us would make so that, at the end of the day, we will all be on either the right road or the wrong one....and all by reasons of our own free willed choices. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Its called life or death......its the only real game in town....and we are all players. The end destinations are already determined, but its not a set route and the players may change paths. There are only two according to our scripture. We choose.
     
  12. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you are referring to the domino effect.
     
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  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    First this reference does well to describe Compatibilism well including Dennett: Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

    The following is a list of his books: Daniel Dennett free will book - Google Search

    I do not totally agree with Dennett, but I do share a version of Compatibilism.

    I do believe that our degree of potential free will and moral responsibility evolved as the basis of the needs as an intelligent social omnivorous mammal.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think that is true, because I have chosen what I do.
     
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  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course you chose it. But "you" did not choose to be who you are, because, what or who you are completely depends on who your parents, relatives, the city, culture, and neighbors you had, specially in your childhood. You did not choose any of these. You did not choose your genetics either. So, essentially you did not choose to be this person you are. Consequently, the choices that you appear to make, is not really you who is making them, but, they are influenced by all factors, that you did not choose them. Did you choose you parents, or where to be born? Which culture to grow up in? Or your friends in your childhood. When you went to school, first grade, you went and happened to sit beside some children. Those also influenced you, and all of these external factors, have made the person you are.
     
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  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The facts are you can only choose out of a limited selection of alternative.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Some belief systems say that we DO choose our parents, where to be born, and into what culture. We do this because our souls, being immortal, bring in conscious existence before birth, choose the situation into which they will be born, according to the lessons they need to learn in this life.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Your outline makes a lot of sense, until we find that these two statements stand in juxtaposition. God’s will shall ultimately take place, yet some of us will not fulfill God’s will, having chosen the wrong road. In this scenario, God’s will is either not ultimate, or it is God’s will that some of us be lost. In the second scenario, God is not good and cannot be trusted, which goes against biblical tenet. In the first, God is not omnipotent. Also against biblical declaration.
     
  19. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    How is that a fact? Even if there would be only two options, if I pick one, I have made the choice. But, I don’t think there is any limits to what I could have chosen.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I have no reason to believe that, sorry.
     
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