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Destiny and all-knowing God

Big_TJ

Active Member
I have 3 questions that are related

1) Does JWs believe that God is all-knowing; which include him knowing everything -even things that has not yet happened?

2) Do you believe people are destined to be whatever they are?


3) If the answer to the first question is YES and the answer to the second is NO, how would you reconcile this?

Respectfully,
Big_TJ
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hi BigTJ, nice to see you back here, you've not been in for a while.

I have 3 questions that are related

1) Does JWs believe that God is all-knowing; which include him knowing everything -even things that has not yet happened?

we believe that he 'can' look into the future to know what will happen, but we dont believe he chooses to do so infinitely. If he did, then he would have known every detail of every sin and rebellious action taken from the beginning of creation.

If he knew beforehand that Satan would lead a rebellion, would he have still created him? Not likely.


2) Do you believe people are destined to be whatever they are?

No, not at all. People 'choose' which path they will take in life.
Even Cain was told to change his ways....this shows that God knows its well within mans power to change what is in his own heart.


3) If the answer to the first question is YES and the answer to the second is NO, how would you reconcile this?

Respectfully,
Big_TJ

I thought i could post you an article about this subject from our insight book... you might find it more informative and detailed.

Infinite exercise of foreknowledge?
The argument that God’s not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is, in reality, an arbitrary view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. (See PERFECTION.) Ultimately, God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.—De 32:4; 2Sa 22:31; Isa 46:10.

To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity. (1Ch 29:11,*12; Job 36:22; 37:23) Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence in any or in all cases. Clearly he has not done so; if he had, not merely certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed, but the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment, accompanied by mighty expressions of disapproval and wrath, as at the Flood and on other occasions. (Ge 6:5-8; 19:23-25,*29; compare Ex 9:13-16; Jer 30:23,*24.) God’s exercise of his might is therefore not simply an unleashing of limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and, where merited, tempered by his mercy.—Ne 9:31; Ps 78:38,*39; Jer 30:11; La 3:22; Eze 20:17.

Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: “What are you doing?” (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “with God all things are possible.” (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “everything that he delighted to do he has done.”—Ps 115:3.
Selective exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of God’s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with God’s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.
Thus, at Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11,*12; compare Ne 9:7,*8; Ga 4:9.

Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of “the tree of life.”—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.

To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in God’s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to ‘keep on asking and seeking’ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Father’s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”—Mt 7:7-11.

Thus, the invitations and opportunities to receive benefits and everlasting blessings set before all men by God are bona fide. (Mt 21:22; Jas 1:5,*6) He can in all sincerity urge men to ‘turn back from transgression and keep living,’ as he did with the people of Israel. (Eze 18:23, 30-32; compare Jer 29:11,*12.) Logically, he could not do this if he foreknew that they were individually destined to die in wickedness. (Compare Ac 17:30,*31; 1Ti 2:3,*4.) As Jehovah told Israel: “Nor said I to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek me simply for nothing, you people.’ I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.*.*.*. Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth.”—Isa 45:19-22.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.’ The inspired apostle John wrote that “God is love,” and the apostle Paul states that love “hopes all things.” (1Jo 4:8; 1Co 13:4,*7) It is in harmony with this outstanding, divine quality that God should exercise a genuinely open, kindly attitude toward all persons, he being desirous of their gaining salvation, until they prove themselves unworthy, beyond hope. (Compare 2Pe 3:9; Heb 6:4-12.) Thus, the apostle Paul speaks of “the kindly quality of God [that] is trying to lead you to repentance.”—Ro 2:4-6.

Finally if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men. (2Co 5:14,*15; 1Ti 2:5,*6; Heb 2:9) The impartiality of God is clearly no mere figure of speech. “In every nation the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Ac 10:34,*35; De 10:17; Ro 2:11) The option is actually and genuinely open to all men “to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.” (Ac 17:26,*27) There is no empty hope or hollow promise set forth, therefore, in the divine exhortation at the end of the book of Revelation inviting: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Re 22:17.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Hi BigTJ, nice to see you back here, you've not been in for a while.

we believe that he 'can' look into the future to know what will happen, but we dont believe he chooses to do so infinitely. If he did, then he would have known every detail of every sin and rebellious action taken from the beginning of creation.

If he knew beforehand that Satan would lead a rebellion, would he have still created him? Not likely.
So, should I infer from this that JWs' belief is that Jehovah does not "know every detail of every sin and rebellious action" and did not know "beforehand that Satan would lead a rebellion"? In other words, is it the belief of JWs that Jehovah is not Omniscient?

No, not at all. People 'choose' which path they will take in life.
Even Cain was told to change his ways....this shows that God knows its well within mans power to change what is in his own heart.

Ok; this belief would be understandable if my interpretation of your first response is correct.

I thought i could post you an article about this subject from our insight book... you might find it more informative and detailed.

Can you tell which page(s) I can find this? I will have a read.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So, should I infer from this that JWs' belief is that Jehovah does not "know every detail of every sin and rebellious action" and did not know "beforehand that Satan would lead a rebellion"? In other words, is it the belief of JWs that Jehovah is not Omniscient?

The answer is that he 'can' be if he chooses to be, but he does not choose to be.

He has not looked into your future to see what will become of you for example.
He will allow you to pave your own destiny.

The only time he does look into the future is when it concerns his own will and purposes... he tells us what will happen so that we can be ready for it in advance or so that we can have hope in the future.


Ok; this belief would be understandable if my interpretation of your first response is correct.

Can you tell which page(s) I can find this? I will have a read.


sure, its Insight on the Scriptures Volume 1 page 856 under the subject heading 'Foreknowledge, Foreordination'
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Hi BigTJ, nice to see you back here, you've not been in for a while.

Thanks; I have been reading the thread even though not participating a lot:D

The answer is that he 'can' be if he chooses to be, but he does not choose to be. He has not looked into your future to see what will become of you for example. He will allow you to pave your own destiny.

So, even though he may "not choose to be," doesn't the fact that "he could, if he wants" suggests that there is an established future there for each person that Jehovah could look into "if he chooses"?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
1) I think they do

2) absolutely not. destiny doesn't exist. we daily make choices, there is freewill


3) Easy as pie: God is not omniscient. He doesn't know what we will do tomorrow or in ten years. He doesn't even know whether we will destroy this planet or not...even it I have this feeling that we will
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thanks; I have been reading the thread even though not participating a lot:D



So, even though he may "not choose to be," doesn't the fact that "he could, if he wants" suggests that there is an established future there for each person that Jehovah could look into "if he chooses"?

If he choose to foreknow all your actions, then yes, i suppose that 'could' be correct. (im only guessing though)

From the scriptures, and from his dealings with all his intelligent creatures, we can see that he does not foresee all their actions. For example, even of those who will be ruling in heaven with Christ, to them they are warned that if they 'ever become unfaithful' they will loose their heavenly inheritance.

That warning wouldnt need to be given if God has looked into the future of each of them.... so the evidence suggests that he has not done that even for those who he will reward with immortal life.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
If he choose to foreknow all your actions, then yes, i suppose that 'could' be correct. (im only guessing though)
Noted.. but if what I mentioned "could be correct" how could it be that this is not some sort of destiny? In other words, if God may "choose"' to see what I will be doing 5 years from now (and he would know this with 100% certainty), who could it not be said that, as at today, I am pre-destined to be doing THAT thing in the next 5 years?


From the scriptures, and from his dealings with all his intelligent creatures, we can see that he does not foresee all their actions. For example, even of those who will be ruling in heaven with Christ, to them they are warned that if they 'ever become unfaithful' they will loose their heavenly inheritance.

That warning wouldnt need to be given if God has looked into the future of each of them.... so the evidence suggests that he has not done that even for those who he will reward with immortal life.

Ok. Understood. If. as you said, the above is from the scriptures, then the scripture would suggest that Jehovah is not all-knowing, in my humbled opinion.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Noted.. but if what I mentioned "could be correct" how could it be that this is not some sort of destiny? In other words, if God may "choose"' to see what I will be doing 5 years from now (and he would know this with 100% certainty), who could it not be said that, as at today, I am pre-destined to be doing THAT thing in the next 5 years?

well i guess that to be 'pre-destined' means that God would cause you to act in the way that he has foreseen.

Thats really what you are assuming here. That if God could see into your future to know everything you were going to do, its actually him making you do it.

I dont think that is really the case though. Even if he chose to see it, it doesnt mean that he made you do it.


Ok. Understood. If. as you said, the above is from the scriptures, then the scripture would suggest that Jehovah is not all-knowing, in my humbled opinion.

not in the case of our individual actions, no. I would agree, he's not all-knowing.

Only when it comes to his own purposes and plans is he all-knowing. He knows exactly what path he will choose and he knows the outcome of such a path.

But he does not yet know who of us will be apart of his plan because he leaves that up to us to decide and we could go either way.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
well i guess that to be 'pre-destined' means that God would cause you to act in the way that he has foreseen.

Thats really what you are assuming here. That if God could see into your future to know everything you were going to do, its actually him making you do it.

I dont think that is really the case though. Even if he chose to see it, it doesnt mean that he made you do it.

Well, I am not questioning if he made you did it or if someone else made you do it. I am simply asking that, if there a future that God can "choose" to look at, and he knows 100% what will happen, how would that be different than saying that someone is pre-destined to do "that thing"? In other words, if God can know with 100% certainty that you will die by drowning in the next 5 years, can I "choose" to kill myself by hanging three years from now?

not in the case of our individual actions, no. I would agree, he's not all-knowing.

Only when it comes to his own purposes and plans is he all-knowing. He knows exactly what path he will choose and he knows the outcome of such a path.

But he does not yet know who of us will be apart of his plan because he leaves that up to us to decide and we could go either way.

Ok thanks a lot. We are probably closer to each other belief here :)
 
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