Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[Ella S.]

This is absolute rubbish.

First. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you will see nowhere that I said there is no evidence for Gravity, Dark Matter, and Dark Energy... nor Magnetism.

No PHYSICAL EVIDENCE does not translate to no evidence. I don't think there is anything wrong with your eyeballs.
Something else? Well...


This proves it's not your eyeballs, that's the problem, because you took the time to use the word physical.


What Christianity? What persecution?

Evidence is an observation which indicates a conclusion. Physics is the study of the observable world. So all evidence is, by definition, physical. There is no other kind of evidence, in my opinion.

"Physical evidence" is therefore a redundant term for what I would simply call "evidence."

 

[Soandso]

It wasn’t meant for people, it’s meant for Satan, people choose that by rejecting Jesus Christ. Why don’t you ask Him yourself?

Why would anyone ever choose to be tortured forever? It's like the husband who beats their wife because she didn't have dinner ready for him when he got home. Is it really her fault that he's beating her?

Like I said, god could make the rules anything he wanted, so why didn't he make a third place for non-believers that wouldn't involve pointless torture by default?

 

[Soandso]

“the natural way things seem to be”? You don’t sound sure. Is creation natural or supernatural?

I'm a creature that experiences things subjectively, and I've been mistaken in the past, so who knows. Until better evidence comes along, I go with what seems to be the most true, though

Can you show me what supernatural creation looks like? Until you can, I have to assume it's natural just like every other thing that we can actually see

You could be living in a delusion.

Possible, but delusion does require certainty - so as long as I stay open minded that becomes less possible. While I certainly have been wrong in the past, I don't attach myself to any idea. If I'm shown to be incorrect on a given subject, I readjust be beliefs and move on

Being wrong is not a weakness, it's just part of the learning process

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ella S., if I were to ask a First Century BC person, he/she would have given the same reply, only that yours is in modern English.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

This is absolute rubbish.

First. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you will see nowhere that I said there is no evidence for Gravity, Dark Matter, and Dark Energy... nor Magnetism.

No PHYSICAL EVIDENCE does not translate to no evidence. I don't think there is anything wrong with your eyeballs.
Something else? Well...


This proves it's not your eyeballs, that's the problem, because you took the time to use the word physical.


What Christianity? What persecution?

I read what you wrote. Semantics won't cause it to magically change and the continued diversion doesn't help you either.

My eyes are fine. I can see that you are up to your usual.

Either you can demonstrate the existence of demons using evidence or you cannot. Given that you are trying to take this all in some weird direction to avoid saying you cannot, I am going to go with that as your answer. There isn't anything else that you need to respond to me with.

 

[Colt]

Spare me the proselytizing, because I'm not interested. I don't care whether you believe in the biblical God or not; just don't try to push your beliefs off on me. So, don't bother trying to convert me and preach at me if that's your intent. I wasted 30 years as a Christian and years before that sincerely believing in God despite being severely abused while growing up, and I'm not going to waste any more of my life clinging to what I now see as nothing more than an emotional crutch. I'm not sure how I can be any clearer than to say that I don't want or need God in my life. If he does exist, he can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. I recommend re-reading the post you quoted of mine for further details about how I feel about God, and don't outright dismiss what I've said.

In my opinion, the type of God who would do this is an evil, sadistic, and psychotic God who takes personal pleasure in tormenting people. If this God is truly all-knowing, all-powerful, and always present as the Bible claims he is, then he would be aware of what will occur in the past, present, and future. And if he is aware of what will happen in the past, present, and future, then as the creator, he alone is morally responsible for sabotaging his own creation by creating humans, despite knowing that they would become morally corrupted and rebel against him. How despicable and morally corrupt can this God be for creating humans knowing they will become morally corrupt, then holding them morally accountable for "sinning against him" and damning them to hell if they don't ask for his forgiveness and repent of behaving exactly as he predicted they would? And evidently, this God decided that punishing the first humans he created for "sinning against him" wasn't enough, so he cruelly decided to punish the rest of humanity, who were born afterward and had nothing to do with the first humans initially disobeying this God. But, of course, I don't believe the mythical biblical account of the first humans in any case or anything else written in the Bible; however, if I did believe the Bible, then I would blame the infinite "all-knowing and all-powerful" creator rather than his finite creations, humanity and the devil, for mankind's moral downfall. I think that the old adage, "The buck stops here!" would apply in that situation.

Excessive self pity! Come on down off the cross, we need the wood!

 

[F1fan]

So then why would you care to be in Heaven or not? The other option is the Lake of fire that is prepared for Satan and the fallen angels.

This is literalist type belief that is not believable nor plausible. I suggest the ideas of heaven and hell represent our living states of mind. A person in balance can be said to be in a heavenly state, and those in turmoil and imbalance are in a hellish state. A symbolic approach is vastly more workable, realistic, and practical for the believer.

This is something I have received from God and something He promised that’s available to every human being.

This is a claim. Where is the evidence and explanation?

Only the person who has rejected Jesus Christ would say otherwise because they haven’t received anything themselves.

Another claim without evidence or an explanation. You seem oblivious to the fact that not everyone makes the same religious assumptions you do.

So yes it’s a fact and provable by a changed life, will also be shown at the Judgement.

It isn't a fact at all. You asserting it is a fact is not credible.

So we can argue all day till that time but it will come and that’s when everything will be exposed as the Bible says.

You aren't arguing at all. You are making fantastic claims without any evidence or explanations of the evidence. So we reject it all by logical default.

So that part is my belief because it hasn’t happened yet . But as far as God and what He’a done and given me is definitely true and a fact.

I understand many believers treat their belief as fact and real, but there are natural explanation for this behavior.

See my facts aren’t like scientific facts…

There are no categories of facts. Fact means true. A fact is true regardless of it's application and content.

scientific facts can be wrong and are applauded when they are and it’s said see how great science is they proved their own facts wrong, this is funny.

I can't think of any example that makes your claim here true. You might be confusing theories in science for fact. Theories can be found to be invalid after years, but this tends to be due to more data and better instrumentation. Theories have to meet a very high standard, 99.95%. If a conclusion is 99.92% it fails. What is the minimum standard for truth in your religion? What is the objective methodology that ensures the ideas are true and not fake?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So there is evidence of demons that can be used to rationally justify a literal belief in these beings, but in my opinion none of the evidence holds up to scrutiny. The people that can be rationally justified in believing in the existence of demons can only do so out of ignorance and misinformation, from where I stand. I could be proven wrong in the face of superior evidence that I myself am ignorant about, or if someone can demonstrate that I am misinformed about the better evidence against these arguments for the existence of demons, but I am not going to say that there is absolutely no evidence for demons whatsoever and believing in them is always irrational. I just don't believe in demons, which means that I also have to believe that the people who do are at least mistaken.

Ella, you appear to be a very reasonable person to me, and I believe that if we were friends in real life, I'd feel comfortable telling you about my psychic medium abilities and demonstrating them to you. In fact, reading your post confirms my decision to include skeptics in my paranormal investigations, and if one or more of them is willing to participate in a reading, then I will privately share a message with them if the opportunity arises. Over the years, I have given readings to many people who don't believe in the paranormal, and none of them remained skeptical after I revealed personal information that was only known between them and their deceased loved one. That includes my first therapist (read about it here), as well as a couple of other therapists and a psychologist. In addition to what I've written in my previous post here, I've also shared how I knew when a friend tragically died (read about it here), when my relatives died (read about it here), and when I've had extraordinary experiences that I couldn't confirm with other present witnesses or document with my ghost-hunting equipment, as I explained in an older post here. In fact, I've spent over a year posting on this forum about my personal experiences as a psychic medium (such as this post here) and a seasoned paranormal investigator (such as this post here) and commenting in many other threads as well.

 

[Ella S.]

Ella S., if I were to ask a First Century BC person, he/she would have given the same reply, only that yours is in modern English.

I agree with the caveat that it depends on who in that period you spoke to. Nothing I said in my reply is really that new or revolutionary of a perspective.

 

[Nakosis]

Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

If so what is the evidence?

Sure, the evidence is the individual's feeling that they exist.
I'd imagine that most people rely on their feelings as evidence 90% of the time for what they believe as true.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So Noah walking with God was "poetic," but God cursing the world with a global flood 3 verses later wasn't? What parts of the story are literal and which aren't, and how do you know?

As far as the Flood just being allegorical….the purpose of allegories is to clearly teach a lesson. There’s too much detail provided in the Genesis account, for it to make any simple clear point.

The reasons to believe it’s literal:

Context, for one.
Other writers of the Bible reference the Flood (2 Peter 2:4-6), as does Jesus himself (Matthew 24:37-39), and some provide further descriptions of the Event, such as the ‘mountains rising and valleys falling’ (Psalms 104) due to the waters.

The evidence for it, is another.

 

[Aupmanyav]

“the natural way things seem to be”? You don’t sound sure. Is creation natural or supernatural?
You could be living in a delusion.

Well, about 1.5 billion people (Hindus and Buddhists) are sure of this that the reality is not the way it seems to be.
Many would ask if creation is really true or just a figment of our imagination, a picture presented by our brain.
Perhaps, it is not us, but you, who are living in a delusion. Getting out of that delusion is known as enlightenment.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I agree with the caveat that it depends on who in that period you spoke to. Nothing I said in my reply is really that new or revolutionary of a perspective.

True, if a Greek, Dao, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain philosopher was asked this question, the answers would have been different.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment, .."
2 Peter 2:4
How come Satan escaped the punishment?

 

[Ella S.]

Ella, you appear to be a very reasonable person to me, and I believe that if we were friends in real life, I'd feel comfortable telling you about my psychic medium abilities and demonstrating them to you. In fact, reading your post confirms my decision to include skeptics in my paranormal investigations, and if one or more of them is willing to participate in a reading, then I will privately share a message with them if the opportunity arises. Over the years, I have given readings to many people who don't believe in the paranormal, and none of them remained skeptical after I revealed personal information that was only known between them and their deceased loved one. That includes my first therapist (read about it here), as well as a couple of other therapists and a psychologist. In addition to what I've written in my previous post here, I've also shared how I knew when a friend tragically died (read about it here), when my relatives died (read about it here), and when I've had extraordinary experiences that I couldn't confirm with other present witnesses or document with my ghost-hunting equipment, as I explained in an older post here. In fact, I've spent over a year posting on this forum about my personal experiences as a psychic medium (such as this post here) and a seasoned paranormal investigator (such as this post here) and commenting in many other threads as well.

Personally, I would be very interested in a private reading or a demonstration, and I would be respectful and non-combative. I wouldn't try to debate your presentation or explanation, nor give questions that might make you uncomfortable, unless you specifically asked me for my thoughts.

I have already read every post you have linked here, as well as a few others, and I re-read the ones you're highlighting here before replying. I think you've done a great job presenting your experiences without hyperbole or exaggeration, actually, and I think it's commendable that you're obviously trying to be as truthful as you can about them. I also think you clearly aren't describing any sort of psychosis or hypnagogia or anything like that; you seem to be obviously clear-minded and reasonable to me.

I have written and re-written this post for about 2 hours now trying to phrase it properly and I think this is about the best it's going to get. I have to get up early in the morning. I apologize if this last part comes across as terse, but I also want to restate that I still don't think that I personally have enough evidence to justify a belief in spirits, just in case it sounds like I'm going back on what I said in my previous post. I'm not. However, I am open to changing my mind and I will seriously consider new information as I receive it. If spirits do exist, I want to know, and I want to be careful that I don't dismiss compelling evidence for their existence if I ever come across it.

 

[Apostle John]

Perhaps, it is not us, but you, who are living in a delusion. Getting out of that delusion is known as enlightenment.

And what can be gained from enlightenment particularly when I know I’m not the one deluded. I’m in rapture most of the time.

 

[ElishaElijah]

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment, .."
2 Peter 2:4
How come Satan escaped the punishment?

He didn’t as you can read, “held for judgement”.
End of Revelation shows Satan’s final destination. In the Lake of Fire.

 

[ElishaElijah]

There are no categories of facts. Fact means true. A fact is true regardless of it's application and content.

You can do your own Google search on scientific facts that were proven wrong.
What God did for me as I’ve written is absolutely true and a fact. You don’t have to believe it, just because you don’t doesn’t make it untrue. You can even say it’s a claim, the claim is true and a fact. In this simple example: I drove to the pond yesterday afternoon and walked around for a while. Do I need proof or evidence for that to be a fact and true? No, because I did do that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What is considered evidence:

15 Types of Evidence and How to Use Them in Investigations

Learn definitions and examples of 15 common types of evidence and how to use them to improve your investigations in this helpful guide.

www.i-sight.com

 

[Left Coast]

As far as the Flood just being allegorical….the purpose of allegories is to clearly teach a lesson. There’s too much detail provided in the Genesis account, for it to make any simple clear point.

But Noah walking with God is part of exactly the same account...?

The reasons to believe it’s literal:

Context, for one.

The context includes a verse you just described as non-literal.

The evidence for it, is another.

You got to the end of that thread and still think your "evidence" holds water after being debunked for pages? Eek.