Well their policies were rather centrist. Reagan had his Iran-Contra scandal. Bush had his wars based on false intel. McCain is pretty clean, as is Biden. Any political is going to do something that is controversial at some point.
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Democracy is in trouble in America
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
Well, sort of. There was a deadline for the vote counting in Florida. The republicans had protests that interfered with the ballot counting. And there were court filings that stopped the counting. Bush had the default lead at that that point, and the time ran out due to the republican use of the courts to delay the process. Trump is trying to use the courts to stop congress from getting his archive documents, which he has lost twice. He's trying to run out the clock on the congressional committee to avoid accountability.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
The fees collected from hunting and fishing go a long ways towards conservation and land management. Those things aren't free, and we need these things to help ensure we still have them tomorrow (it also helps protect land from being destroyed and defaced with housing editions and malls).
Driving is a privilege, and it requires great responsibility. It should never be a right and they need to be more strict about it (especially with drunk driving penalties). And roads, bridges, those things aren't free.
I've never paid to swim in a pond, river, or other natural body of water.
I pay fees but not taxes on my car. I don't pay anything for any equipment I have.
Camping on camp grounds, state parks, etc., they are providing a service and have bills to pay in order to provide those services. If you don't want to pay go camping where it's both free and legal. Like deep in the woods. There's nothing illegal about camping there and the cost is in supplies, equipment, and getting there.
And owning land is so absurdly artificial and made up that whoever makes the rules gets to do whatever. Like property borders. That only exists on paper. So with the power to even acknowledge the existence of these non-physical barriers taxes is child's play. America also isn't unique with property taxes.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's true that corporations have an overbearing influence on America. But what I was talking about originally was recent events where things got even worse. Too many people don't believe in the results of elections. That includes people of all stripes, now and in the future. It's not just Republicans, in Georgia in the last governors race, the result was not believed as legitimate by Democrats, rightly or wrongly. In the future Democrats fear that results will be in effect stolen by voter suppression. Will Republican and Democrat politicians, rightly or wrongly, claim the election was stolen in 2022? We don't have to wait for 2024.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Step 1: make tracking and (psychological) profiling of internet users illegal except for logging purposes (and the log legally can't be used for anything other then a log - once written it shouldn't be checked again except when authorities demand you to in context of a crime investigation, or to test the log)
Step 2: in addition to 1, also make "targeted advertising", "targeted search results" and basically anything that even smells like "google / facebook / twitter thinks you might find this interesting" just as illegal. This is the very functionality that first rapes privacy to an extent that was never before even possible and secondly, it accomodates for the feedback loop where people get caught in a bubble of potentially misinformation, fake news and conspiracy drivel. The algorithm doesn't do "fact checking". It just looks at your interests and gives you more of the same - regardless of where it comes. So foreign powers, like russia and china, or domestic evil forces, like the far right and the trumps of this world, treat this like a god-send for the purpose of voter manipulation. They analyse the profiles (made illegal in step 1) and use those to "feed them" with content that will slowly but surely "mold" them into the position that they want them to be in.
This is how Trump got elected.
This is how Brexit got done.
Both cybercampaigns were done by the same people, using the same methods.
Russians do it to. China does it also.
This very business model of big tech / big data is a real sneaky *******. It looks innocent, but it is a weapon that can completely disrupt and destabilize free democracies in ways that were never before possible. And it's self-sufficient also. All you need to do is inject your content into a strategically chosen channel and from there, "the system" takes over.
The problem.... neither step 1 or 2 will ever happen.
And the reason is: $$$$$$$
+90% of the revenue of companies like Google and Facebook, literally depend on being able to do what is described in the above steps. The reason an advertiser goes to google instead of a "competitor" with 0.01% market share, is because google has that leverage of big data.
Doing what needs to be done to fix this means, would effectively mean disabling both facebook and google.
Their leverage would be gone. Their income would plummet. Their entire current business model would become illegal.
It will require politicians with balls the size of watermelons to carry this through.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Holy cow, I never thought of that before. That could actually happen. If GOP were to jettison the extremist "Christians," the party could be respectable again. Will they do this? Doubt it.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Don't understand all that as I am not a computer technical person at all, but I get the gist and I agree.
I understand that much better, and heartedly agree!
I know what you mean, but I once had bing, not google. Yes, there is a big problem with the profit motive in social media, and all news for a long time. Especially today.
What should be done about this?
There's more to it than that, I think. There are also dueling cable and online news networks selling their ideologies in the name of profits, with disinformation being mixed in. This continues a trend that has existed at least since Randolph Hearst.
There are also lying politicians which these disinformation networks support, also for their own gain, whether it be power or money.
For now, not much can be done for this, the system is self-perpetuating.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
As I said... it should be illegal. It actually in a way already IS illegal. The problem is that the tech develops too fast and the laws can't catch up, because "big government" is slow moving. And lobby groups (and "big money") slow it down further.
The problem is also that in matters of technicalities of law, the current laws don't "technically" apply to the cyber-situation. But for almost EVERY point I mentioned, there is actually a law, at least sort of, that makes it "real life" counterpart illegal.
This is why I always say that to find out if a certain cyber practice is okay, ask yourself what the "real world" counter part would be.
Just imagine if the postman who brings you your written letters, first opens them all to actually read them to see what you talk about with people. And based on his findings, he will drop "customized" advertisement in your mailbox. "ow, he has cat pets I see... lemme grab this folder here for cat toys, also this one for a new vet practice, perhaps also this one for cat food".
This is exactly what google does when you use gmail. Only it's an "algoritm" that reads your mail instead of a person. So next time you go to a website that uses google ads after writing mails about cats, you'll see ads about cat stuff. If they share your profile data with facebook, they'll suddenly start "promoting" groups about cats, games about cats, and during election time they might serve you with ads from politicians who like cats.
And then there's google search. You search for "cats" and you get a bunch of results about cats.
Meanwhile, some other guy who doesn't have pets but enjoys going to theaters, who does the exact same google search of "cats", will get search results about the show Cats.
Same website. Same search terms. Same time of day. Same external IP address even. Different results though.
Another example is a law that comes from the days when photography was becoming more common. It's a law in Belgium, but I assume many other countries will have something similar.
It is actually illegal in Belgium to take a photograph in which other people are recognizable without explicit approval / consent of those people. So not even the publishing thereof. Even only taking the photograph is illegal.
People used to be a LOT more serious about privacy.
No idea who that is, but the things is that actual new networks can, and should, be held accountable.
The "fake news" that selfsufficiently spreads through social media however, doesn't really come from anywhere. It's just Joe Shmoe putting nonsense online and it going "viral" and ending up on the screens of people being kept locked into those bubbles of "interests".
Facebook has only ONE goal: keep your eyes on the screen. They literaly do not care what you do on that screen. They don't care what you read, what you play,... They literally don't even care about their own product. If replacing the entire platform of facebook with an animated gif of a turd with a fly buzzing around it will keep 1 billion users locked on the screen, then that is exactly what they would do.
They have zero ethics. They don't even have an actual vision for their productline. They have no product goals to accomplish. Their entire purpose of existing is 2-fold: "keep them on the screen" and "take their data". Same for google.
You think google cares about people having a nice phone with android? LOL, no. They only care about as many people as possible using their OS on their phone. Why? Because that gives them access to all your contacts, your whereabouts, your interests, .... your life. THAT's what they are interested in.
This is why google products are "free". They build software, but they are not a software company.
I know people who are all "anti microsoft" and proudly tell me that their PC, phone, tablet, cloud computing is 100% google "and it's all free!!! I don't need to pay 140 bucks for windows or 400 bucks for office!!!"
And I'm like "have you ever wondered WHY???"
Obviously. Someone like Trump isn't going to do anything about this. It's his primary weapon to get elected.
Unfortunately, yes.
BTW: did you know that MANY of the people who invented all this stuff in the early days of facebook, have all quit their positions due to ethical objections? The guy who invented the "endless scroll". The guy who invented the "thumbs up" button. When they did their work, they had the best intentions. After a few years, they realized what kind of monster they created and upon noticing that they weren't going to be heard inside the company, they quit and many actually switched sides and are now activists trying to turn this turd around.
And to end with, here's something that should tell people all that they need to know.......
The kids of all these bigshot sillicon valley social media board members.... they are not allowed to use the products that their very own companies are making!
The reason why is simple: they realize very well that it is nothing but psychological poison.
Sorry for rambling, but as a software engineer myself who grew up in the 90's and witnessed the rise of the internet first hand and saw all this nonsense unfold before my powerless eyes, I'm quite passionate about this entire thing. I also shoot myself in the foot professionally as I categorically REFUSE to comply with this way of working. NO, my products will NOT be connecting to facebook, twitter,.. or any of that nonsense. This costs me business at times. It hurts sometimes, but at least my conscience is clear.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The main problem with this analysis is there has been no formal federal investigation into the voter fraud claims. It has all been done with private funding; private law suits in court. This approach does not have access to classified FBI and CIA information, nor can it cut through the foot dragging bureaucracy. Its had to be done in less than a few months. This lack of a fair trial, for such serious charge, is where Democracy is being destroyed.
Picture if after the Democrats made their infamous 2016 Russian Collusion charge, their charge had to be funded and performed with only private means. To complete the parallel, Trump who was President got to use Government resources to foot drag, shield, deny. He could also collateral investigate the Democrats using the full power of the government and his own propaganda wing; trial in the court of public opinion. The Left would never be satisfied with the results under those very op-sided conditions. This is the current scam by the left. This is why we are still where we are.
How about allowing Former President Trump to have a Mueller style investigation into the very serious charge of voter fraud. Such a serious charge of stealing the presidency needs to be investigated at the highest levels. What would happen if this was true? To complete the parallel to the Democrat collusion scam, we will give the investigation $25 million plus in funding, allow it to stack the investigation with 20 angry Republican loyalists lawyers, with full access to all aspect of state and federal governments. They will also have the teeth to get anything needed to ascertain the truth? They can even break down Pelosi's home door and drag her out in cuffs while calling in allies like to FOX to broadcast it, live. That would be parallel to the lop-sided lower the Democrats had with the Mueller investigation. The irony was the liars had all the power and the innocent had no power.
Democracy is not stacked on just one side of the political isle. Every claim the Democrats made, from collusion, two impeachments, to the capital riot had this schema in their favor. That is called socialist monarchy and it is the worse threat to Democracy. This perversion of power at the top has a negative trickle down affect since it can be used to silence and bully political enemies, which is undemocratic. The power of the government is even being used to threaten social media to do its dirty work.
This fall, after the Republicans win the House and Senate, all the two faced Democrats need to be investigated and prosecuted for their many conspiracy crimes. At the very least, even if nobody goes to jail, I would use this as an opportunity to bankrupt the worse of the worse, with needed legal debt, so they can defend themselves. The Democrats did that to General Flynn to get him too lie, and they need a taste of their own unDemocratic medicine.
How many people think the serious charge of voter fraud needs to be investigated with a Government funded investigation, so we can fairly settle this once and for all. If the Democrats are right, this deep dive will end the voter fraud claim, once and for all, and it may even pull voters away from Trump. The Democrats will benefits by this. But if the Democrats are guilty and are covering up crimes, they will make excuses and not allow it. The answer these questions will tell us something.
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Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
At a site called Freedom House, they calculate that freedom for 15 years in a row has declined in the world looking at the situation overall.
Look at now how Putin has installed an authoritarian regime in Russia where he controlls the media, and thus is able to get away with his destructive war. Venezuelia has been taken over by Madura. Hungary has an authoritrian regime now. Modi in India is moving in an authoritarian direction and has been dividing Hindus from Muslims. I'll read your site.
Looking at the Freedom house site, Belarus is of course is in authoriarian regime now, Syria is very unfree, they don't see Iraq as free even though Saddam Hussain was chased out. Iran is not free, I've known that. There was a lack of freedom under the Shah, and it got worse, in my opinion under the theocratic government installed there in 1979. Saudi Arabia is under the thumb of MBS and has become more authoritarian under him. Therre are a lot of unfree countries in Africa. Did the Arab spring help things? Not in the long run. Turkey has become more authoritarian recently.
Look at now how Putin has installed an authoritarian regime in Russia where he controlls the media, and thus is able to get away with his destructive war. Venezuelia has been taken over by Madura. Hungary has an authoritrian regime now. Modi in India is moving in an authoritarian direction and has been dividing Hindus from Muslims. I'll read your site.
Looking at the Freedom house site, Belarus is of course is in authoriarian regime now, Syria is very unfree, they don't see Iraq as free even though Saddam Hussain was chased out. Iran is not free, I've known that. There was a lack of freedom under the Shah, and it got worse, in my opinion under the theocratic government installed there in 1979. Saudi Arabia is under the thumb of MBS and has become more authoritarian under him. Therre are a lot of unfree countries in Africa. Did the Arab spring help things? Not in the long run. Turkey has become more authoritarian recently.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The simplest way to unravel the deception and misinformation, where each side blames the other as being authoritarian, is to go back to 1776.
The Revolutionary War in the USA, began because the King of England would tax the colonists but not give them representation in Parliament. This was an example of Authoritarianism, where those in power could decide for all, including a bad deal for some of its citizens. There are often two sets of rules with the easier and more permissive rules for the leadership. We are told that Climate change will require sacrifice but not for the elite, who have a different set of self serving rules.
The Constitution was written, based on a new way to govern; a government of the people, by the people and for the people. It was not about decree from central power or a self serving dual justice system. It was about free citizens choosing their own path from a set of rules that applied to all. The Constitution was built with checks and balances; rock, paper and scissors. This was to avoid decrees, through legal and Constitutional challenges.
They also formed a bill of rights which applied to all people. Rights apply to all. There is no such thing as a women's rights, since the term rights, has to apply to all. If it only applies to some, this is better defined as an entitlement. This distinction is important since monarchies and authoritarian governments are based on entitlements for some, and no equal rights for all. Members of Congress are entitled to insider stock trading but this is a crime for everyone else; authoritarian and their entitlements.
The right to bear arms of own guns is a right that applies to all ; men, women, all ethnicities and skin colors. We have a right to a fair and speedy trial. Some people from the 1/6 riots are still in jail, over a year, without any trial, never mind a fair one. This violates their rights, in favor of the self given entitlements by Democrat leaders punishing political enemies like a dictator who can take away right.
The idea of equal rights, was built on Christians values; love your neighbor. Our Rights are designed to help us play the game of social life, like sports. In sports, we are all under the same set of rules, but not every team or individual will win every game. If we rig the sport for specific outcomes; quota system, that is an entitlement by decree. Sports is designed to ebb and flow with each dog having their day. This makes it fun and fair while based on us using our full human potential. One can play sports hard, but this is not war, since it is based on good sportsmanship. We can still agree to disagree and be friends.
Entitlement is much closer to the nature of war, since entitlement is based on cheating others of their rights, by decree, in a zero sum game. The male is not entitled to decide an abortion. His right is stolen by decree. The entitlement mentality leads to breaking the rules in sports, until there is the chaos of war and/or the paranoia of dictators, who further take away rights, like freedom of speech, under the guise of entitlements for the emotionally crippled. We create our own emotional reality and can change without stealing rights.
It never seems to occur to anti-Trumpers that it isn’t despite no evidence but because there is no evidence that many question the 2020 election results. Sometimes a lack of evidence isn’t an evidence of a lacking. If putative perpetrators are competent enough to rig election results it is reasonable to expect they would try to conceal or destroy the evidence of doing so. Unfortunately much of the election artifacts have been destroyed. This leaves questions unanswered about the election. There will be much debate on whether the questions are valid. Nor is it just Republicans that question the election results. The survey also reported that one third of independents and all respondents thought the election results were questionable. When one third of the electorate question election results that is a problem.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
We had the Meuller investigation, so we could take a deep dive into the Russian Collusion misinformation campaign provided by Hillary Clinton and the DNC. Trump allowed this since ehe knew he was innocent.
Electron fraud was also a very serious charge, but there was no federal investigation. The Democrats tried to sweep that under the rug way too fast.
It seems fair that these two "false charges" would be treated equal. Instead the Democrats deemed voter fraud debunked, without any formal Federal investigation. This was deemed a done deal, in a matter of weeks, instead of wait for two years like we did with Mueller. Why the difference?
The only investigations into voter fraud was based on Republican funded legal actions, that did not have the same access, teeth and tax payer funding as did Mueller. This huge difference in justice makes me suspicious of anything the Democrats do or say about the matter.
The Democrats have given themselves over a year to investigate 1/6 riots, with tax payer funding. On the other hand, the voter fraud claim gets nothing like that. Why believe those who lied for 3 years about the Collusion Delusion and ignore those who got it right for three years? This smells like a Democrat scam and cover up via distractions.
The 1/6 investigation is similar to the two impeachment trials of Trump. They are all lopsided for the Democrats, who are breaking the rules; both sides need to be represented. These were all designed to push a narrative with one sided data, instead of debate all the facts from both sides. Liars cannot work with all the data as well as lopsided data.
The two Republican that would debate the other side were dismissed, by the Democrats, in favor of two Trump hating RINO's. It smell of rigged injustice. Nobody has yet to be punished for the Collusion Coup and to keep it that way they cannot have a fair trial.
If the Democrats had been innocent of voter fraud, they would have supported a deep dive, with Federal Resources. A not guilty conclusion could have broken hard core Trump support like the Mueller report took the wind out of the Left's hard core sails. Instead they decided to ignore justice and do a full scale propaganda blitz, like they did with the collusion delusion scam, to peg anyone who questioned the election result, a conspiracy nut. Name calling is no substitute for an investigation unless there is scam.
How can you trust liars who have proven to all us, on both side, that there can lie so easily and as a team? We can go back and read and watch the scammers in action based on written, audio and visual records. We may need to wait until the fall, after the Republicans win the midterms and head all the intel committees. They can investigate these suspicious activities, that appear to be a coverup for the collusion delusion scam.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The above is garbage-- nothing more, nothing less.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
There is actually a very good reason for this.
It's really very simple. There was a federal investigation into Russian collusion because there was a lot of credible evidence of Russian interference in the 2016 election, and the investigation unearthed significantly more evidence and made a number of convictions.
Meanwhile, there has never been any credible evidence of widespread election fraud in the 2020 election, and every time any of Trump's lawyers got to court to make their case before a judge they refused to ever actually allege any kind of fraud or present any evidence.
What you're asking is like asking why there was a murder investigation when there was a missing person with blood found in their home and several close family members with extensive criminal records who benefited directly from their disappearance, but why there wasn't a murder investigation into the murder of someone who is still alive and nobody even tried to murder them and there has never been any reason to suspect that they ever have been or will be murdered. It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
First of all, non of the judges ever said there was zero voter fraud. What they said was there was not enough proven voter fraud to overturn the result of the Presidential election, without inciting riots. The Left showed that they would do, the summer before, if they did not get their way. This was planned out.
If the difference was 50,000 votes in a swing state and only 40,000 vote were proven fraudulent, the same conclusion would have been reached by the judges; not enough votes to overturn the election. The Republican Party only had access to civil law, which does not have the teeth of a state run investigation. Judges also knew the Rights was less violent and would use the courts.
A Federal investigation is where you have the power of the state to look deeply into such matters, and to even look into spin off accountability and crimes, like Mueller and his 20 Democrats lawyers were looking for but could not find, since the main charged were a Hillary hoax. It is strange that the Mueller report did not include Hillary and DNC buying foreign disinformation since this was the origin.
Private citizens using civil cases cannot access classified information or force hostile witnesses to appear. They cannot take witnesses out in shackles like the FBI. They have to stay in the shallows where they can be ignored or even sabotaged by the guilty in power.
There was never an "end all doubt" investigation, in the same way, that the collusion hoax and coup had received. The power of Government helped the collusion hoax, by given it apparent credibility. That fraud still needs to be atoned for, since now we all know that Hillary and DNC started the fraud. Anything after that, we had a Party wide failed coup that nobody has ever been punished for. The Democrats has a reason to cheat to win in 2020; stay out of jail.
The easiest way to get away with voter fraud would be to vote for registered voters, who did not vote. On the average, only about 65% of all the registered voters will vote. This means 35% of the registered voters, could theoretically be voted for, and nobody would ever know. This type of fraud would appear legitimate on paper, since all votes could be traced to valid register voters.
To do this you need to wait close to the midnight hour, so you can run a computer program that will generate a report telling you which registered voters did not vote. Trump was way ahead near the midnight hour. There was a computer pause, and then like magic, more registered votes appear. We were told these late votes were late mail in voters. The pandemic gave this credibility since people were scared. I suppose we can ask everyone if they voted.
This appears to be what happened in California in 2016. California had an astonishing, 80 plus % voter turnout, even after Hillary was declared the loser by virtual of the electoral college math. California did not matter at that point. That much late spirited voting made no sense ,since the Liberal media cheerleaders were down in the dumps. But it was enough to win the national popular vote.
The popular vote versus electoral college turned out to be the mantra of the Democrat propaganda machine after the election. How strange indeed. Does anyone remember the Left wanting to do away with the electoral college? California would not cooperate with federal election investigators, who wished to look into this unique voter percent event.
In the fall, we may have to revisit all this with Federal Investigations. I would start with all those who ran the Russian collusion delusion coup. These are both connected. The crooks had to double down or face the music, sooner than later.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Mueller stated somewhat after both impeachments that he decided not to after any allegations of "collusion".
BTW, the Pubs originally were the ones who wanted to possibly buy the "disinformation" but then abandoned that, so then the Dems looked into this. Which Pubs wanted to do that has never been released according to my understanding.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Straight away, a red flag and a sign that you cannot debate in good faith.
That was not the claim. The claim is that there was WIDESPREAD voter fraud which significantly impacted the election in favour of Biden. Nobody in their right mind would claim that there is ZERO voter fraud in any election. The question is the quantity and the result.
This is just conspiracy mongering. You only need to look at January 6th and the buildup to it to see who poses a more immediate threat to democracy at this point in history. It unequivocally and indisputably the far right and those complicit in Trump's attempted coup. That actually happened. Not the imaginary one in your head. The one that really, actually happened - in REALITY - was conducted by Trump-supporters and a conglomeration of extreme right-wingers.
The rest of your post is just more conspiratorial rambling and not worthy of discussion. The fact is that there was no widespread voter fraud, no evidence of widespread voter fraud found, and thus no need for any extensive investigation beyond the multiple investigations already carried out that all concluded there was no widespread fraud.
Trump just lost. And then refused to accept it. And then incited the violent protest in an attempt to overturn democracy. Your side did this.
It was not the left.
It was not antifa.
Or BLM.
If was right-leaning Trump supporters who staged a violent protest in an attempt to overturn the results of secure democratic election, and it was Trump who was the direct cause.
It is demonstrable and true to say that these groups and individuals pose a greater threat to American democracy than the left or the democrats. You got it wrong. Just own up to it and salvage some kind of honour.
Or, continue coping.