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Democracy, a lost cause

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Willamena, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. Willamena

    Willamena Just be there, doing that
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  2. osgart

    osgart Member

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    the notion of democracy is why western society is what it is. people can do good under it.

    The alternative is ******** holding power over you, so, no, it ain't a lost cause.
     
  3. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    Democracy only works with an informed and educated electorate.

    Democracy has been described as "two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner", but even when we have 2 sheep and a wolf voting on what to have for dinner, they still manage to pick mutton.
     
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  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    We could just restrict voting to people who have passed some sort of basic test, Ancient Greek style. The problem is that the line drawn (whatever it may be) is a good way to ensure certain people's interests are protected, and others suppressed. That being the case, I would like the voters to be 'people kinda like me' and the dispossessed masses to be 'everyone else'.

    Oh, and when I say 'dispossessed', I mean more...ya know...under our care.

    ;)
     
  5. sunrise123

    sunrise123 Darkness will pass. Dawn is almost here.
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    As has been said, Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest. Given what we see around the world with various forms of dictatorship, I agree with that sentiment.
     
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  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I don't know about it being a lost cause, but I sure wish more people living under it valued it.

    Sometimes it feels like the natural instincts of human beings gravitate towards seeking some form or another of rule of force.
     
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  7. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva
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    I'm all for a very simple competency test for voters.

    Do you have picture ID?
    What is your name?
    Should dihydrogen monoxide be banned from public areas?
    Name the leader of the largest opposition party in the country.
     
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  8. questfortruth

    questfortruth Member

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    The democracy has lost the God?
     
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  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The Greeks didn't have to pass a test other than 'are you a militarily trained Athenian male Citizen?'

    In modern parlance, democracy has become associated purely with the mass plebiscite, however this has not always been the case.

    The Athenians used a system called sortition for selecting officials, basically the random selection of officeholders from all available people.

    As we know, elections favour the establishment, the rich, the powerful and can fall prey to special interests to create oligarchies; they are not really democratic as some are more equal than others.

    Sortition on the other hand increases the diversity of leadership, prevents the harms of the horse race, and reduces the potential for vested interest groups to become entrenched.

    Given that people everywhere despise politicians, who seem often to be the worst people for the job, I'm a strong advocate for sortition to be used as a significant part of modern democracy.

    While the average person has little time to become acquainted with all the intricacies of modern politics and events, a random cross section of these people invested with particular responsibilities can get a much better grasp and make better informed decisions yet still be representative of the people.

    The best form of democracy is one that does away with the general election, and returns power to the people over special interests.
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Oh, I know. You might have me covered, but I'm a sucker for ancient history. Roman more than Greek, but you know what they say; When in Athens...ahem...

    In any case, it's a hard test to pass if you're not a military trained Athenian male citizen. Well over half of the adult population.
     
  11. Willamena

    Willamena Just be there, doing that
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    Democracy never had "the God." Individuality is essential to it.
     
  12. bobhikes

    bobhikes Liveinthenowist
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    You just need forced Democracy. If your of voting age and don't vote you go to jail. You must run for a political position every 20 years after you reach voting age or you go to jail. Companies must hold the position of a person in there first political term or they go to jail. It would work fine then but of course people wouldn't like it.
     
  13. questfortruth

    questfortruth Member

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    Call it the false gods then. Having no quest for True God is the having bound to so called "gods".
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Democracy is a lost cause if snd when we concede defeat.
     
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  15. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I've also heard it said that "All forms of politics are dirty. Democracy and dictatorship are variations on a single theme: Please the mob."

    Of course, our own system isn't pure democracy, but a democratic-republic which limits the power of government and ensures rule of law and rights for the individual. Some might say that our representative democracy leaves something to be desired, and one might well wonder whether our government truly represents the will of the people.

    Even those that would be considered "dictatorships" have some measure of democratic appeal and supposed backing of "the people." Hitler claimed to have the backing of the German "Volk." Stalin's government was filled with "People's Deputies." Mao's country was (and still is) called a "People's Republic." North Korea calls itself a "democratic people's republic." All of these governments would claim that they represent the best interests of "the people," just as our government claims.

    In past eras, monarchists would claim that monarchs have a "divine right," as if they were chosen directly by God. In modern times, national leaders having the support of "the people" has become the new "divine right."
     
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  16. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Democracy is the best system we have for governing a species as flawed as human beings.
     
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  17. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    We could lose it without conceding defeat. We could vote our democracies away and sit about twiddling our thumbs while the time to make a difference passes without knowing it.

    Americans should give this guy a listen if they haven't already:

    I'm one of those who said that Trump wasn't likely to move the USA towards authoritianism but it's worth having a look at the similarities between his approach and that of Putin, Erdogan et al. And the parallels between now and 1933.
     
  18. leibowde84

    leibowde84 Veteran Member

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    That is as good thing. When there is no separation of church and state, we will inevitably become a theocracy where religious beliefs instead of facts dictate legislation.
     
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  19. questfortruth

    questfortruth Member

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    Faith is faithfulness to Knowledge. There is no separation in a healthy mind.
     
  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis Barnacle Bill the Sailor
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    [​IMG]

    Tomas Jefferson - "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49."

    The US in not strictly a democracy. Our system tries to limit mob rule by the constitution which limits the powers of government and through our representative process.

    Unfortunately it seems people who are given power can't help but be corrupted by it.

    You have career politicians who only represent career politicians. Being not working folks themselves, they can't really represent working folks.
     
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