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Delusions in a Godless Universe

usfan

Well-Known Member
Why does something have to be objectively true to have any benefit?

Myths, fables, aphorisms, etc. aren't true, yet all can offer benefits. You can tell the truth with fiction and lies with facts after all.

Anyway, the idea that searching for 'objective truth' is intrinsically virtuous is itself a fiction (or as you say, 'delusion').

Rejecting gods doesn't mean you start 'facing reality', it just means you start constructing new systems of meaning and building a new set of fictions (or mythos) to bring you comfort in the cold, meaningless universe in which we reside.
Good post. My use of 'benefit', was in the context of deliberate self delusion.. pretending 'meaning!', in a meaningless, random universe. Of course, we have fantasies, and love alternate realities.. 'Fiction', we call that, but we usually differentiate between fiction and objective reality. Those who don't are labeled 'insane!', or some other endearing social term.

I see enjoyment of fantasy or fiction as pretty universal among humans. But most can seperate them from objective reality. Why do humans not do this with God, and spirituality, if this is a godless universe?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
there are different kinds of love. I tried to address the historical view of a 'spiritual', or soul love. That would be a delusion, in a godless universe.
I am of the opinion that the word "spiritual" comes pre-packaged with one or more delusions all on its own... so no argument from me here.

How can any moralizing be anything but a manipulation and a delusion, in a godless universe?
It is actually ridiculously simple in principle - seriously, just follow me here:
We establish an agreed-upon basis for morality between us - let's say it is "do no harm" (this is way too simplistic, but it will do for the example), and then we compare any action we propose to take against that as the standard of "morality." Does punching someone in the face do harm? If so, then according to our basis for morality, that action is deemed immoral. Once you have established the base, things flow from there, and you amend or append to your bases as you uncover or discover new information.

..but there is no 'a priori' meaning to anything.
And why, do you propose, does this even matter at all? Seriously... who cares? Does there have to be? If so, why? And how can you demonstrate that it must be so? It doesn't matter at all that there is no "a priori" meaning. We don't need meaning independent of ourselves in order to live... this is proven when we are born devoid of any idea what the hell we are doing. We live, and that's that. You want out? You know the way.

Everyone chooses what they wish, and there is no standard or right/wrong. Anything and everything just is.. there is no overriding, God ordained 'purpose', as theists can posit.
Again - why does this matter? If we start out blank slates and have to figure things out, and come to our own thoughts on right/wrong (our ideas of which are almost entirely relative to our species by the way), what is your real issue with this? Isn't that what all the evidence points to anyway? Isn't that how the world seems to work on its own? Do you see God stepping in to correct us like a "good father" should? We're on our own, and pretending God is going to step in "one of these days" isn't helping anyone.

Sure, if someone launches us into a nuclear winter, that would affect everyone.
You seem to miss my point completely and are thinking of grand and sweeping changes to our microcosm of the universe (Earth). I'm talking about the fact that if I decide to eat a peanut-butter and jelly sandwich for lunch today, then I have fundamentally altered the course of the atoms and molecules that currently make up that sandwich for the rest of time. No matter what it is you are doing, you have eternally altered the course of the universe. Even just thinking - which leads to all sorts of action or inaction. All of it alters the universe, for eternity.

I meant it as a spiritual consequence, which is what many theists believe. There might be 'eternal consequences', for thoughts, words, and actions, in a God made universe, but there cannot be in a godless one. The contrast between the beliefs is the exercise, here.
This obviously depends on what the word "spiritual" even means. What is a "spiritual consequence?" Something that affects an "after-life" specifically? We don't even know that there is an "after-life." Believe it all you want - doesn't make it true. Just like my not believing it all I want doesn't make it not true. But why all this fuss over consequences in a realm you can't even know the reality of?

Why is this delusional tendency so common in man? It seems counterintuitive.
I thought I just told you why. Why is it theists do this so often? They receive an answer, and then act as if they haven't received any answer at all. Atheists I have seen/read at least address the answer, and either refute or accept it. Theists on the other hand so often just ignore and ask again. It is one of the most confounding behaviors I have ever borne witness to.

What I told you was that humans form these delusions in order to fill voids that frighten them. For example, not having any meaning nor any structure to "right and wrong", and leaving all that up to themselves and those around them is scary... so they insert "God" to be the arbiter of those aspects of their lives, because then they don't have to face what they consider an enormous responsibility.

how does presupposing eternal existence, a Supreme Being, consequence for thoughts, words, deeds, and heaven/hell bring comfort? Neither possibility seems very comforting..
See the paragraph of mine just before this.

IF.. this is a godless universe,
THEN... any belief in supernatural, spirit/soul, meaning, morality, heaven, a Creator.. ANYTHING, could only be a delusion, brought upon us by some unknown natural process. How does pretending that these imaginations have any benefit? Would not it be better to face reality, rather than live under a delusion?
And this is it, right here. I believe it IS better to just face reality. But people don't do it. This is PROVEN in theism. Absolutely and undeniably proven. And YOU KNOW why. You know the proof yourself. It lies in the variability of people's beliefs about this "spiritual" or "supernatural" arena. Everyone believes something different, and there have come and gone thousands more beliefs. Beliefs that almost no one ascribes to today. The vast majority of those HAVE TO BE delusions. They have to. Even you have to admit that if you want to subscribe to the idea of your one, specific deity. You HAVE TO. You have no choice. You have to label "Thor" a delusion. You have to label "Zeus" and the cavalcade of Greek gods a delusion. You have to. Your God even specifically instructs you that YOU MUST. You're under obligation to God and your fellow worshipers. I just take it one step further and label yours a delusion also. Why is that so hard to understand?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You seem to agree with every point. I think you get the assumption, and the implication of belief. Why do many atheists not follow the logical implications of their beliefs? Why do some want to pretend 'meaning!', love, or morality, or soul? Is is just leftover remnants of the theistic delusion?

To be fair, I made the assumption of naturalism, since I am a naturalist.

Naturalism entails atheism, but the contrary is not necessarily true. For instance, there are atheists who believe in objective morality or in a spiritual realm (the latter not necessarily in need of a divine ruler).

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Why do you say that free will is a delusion?

Because of physics. But maybe is more like an illusion. Anyway, I am addressing here libertarian free will here.

Ciao

- viole
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
is actually ridiculously simple in principle - seriously, just follow me here:
We establish an agreed-upon basis for morality between us - let's say it is
what if we don't agree? Its down to 'might makes right', for most all of human history.
why, do you propose, does this even matter at all? Seriously... who cares? Does there have to be?
It doesn't matter. That is my point. In a godless universe , 'meaning!' is a delusion. There is no meaning, and any pretense of significance or 'purpose!', is a delusion.
Again - why does this matter? If we start out blank slates and have to figure things out, and come to our own thoughts on right/wrong (our ideas of which are almost entirely relative
Again, it doesn't. It is a human construct, and any moralizing can be picked and chosen for expediency or personal preference. Nobody can say yours or mine are better or worse than anybody else.
I thought I just told you why. Why is it theists do this so often? They receive an answer, and then act as if they haven't received any answer at all
Don't be so touchy. I'm looking for a causal process, not an assertion of belief, or conjecture.
What I told you was that humans form these delusions in order to fill voids that frighten them.
So you claim. But fear is in all humans. Are you suggesting that atheists are inherently more fearless than theists?

Why do some atheists hold onto some of the delusions, like meaning, morality, soul, spirit, etc? Are they still gripped with fear? How can you know the mental state of everybody, and declare, 'Fear!' as the motivating factor for all delusional beliefs?
Everyone believes something different, and there have come and gone thousands more beliefs. Beliefs that almost no one ascribes to today. The vast majority of those HAVE TO BE delusions. They have to. Even you have to admit that if you want to subscribe to the idea of your one, specific deity. You HAVE TO. You have no choice. You have to label "Thor" a delusion. You have to label "Zeus" and the cavalcade of Greek gods a delusion. You have to. Your God even specifically instructs you that YOU MUST. You're under obligation to God and your fellow worshipers. I just take it one step further and label yours a delusion also. Why is that so hard to understand?
Cslm down. This is just a philosophical discussion. I understand it well. I'm not even talking about theistic beliefs, except to contrast them with the premise of a godless universe.

Yes, everyone believes something. Perhaps an existential examination of belief, and the factors that comprise them would be an interesting topic.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Here is a list of what can only be called 'delusions', IF this is a godless universe :

1. There is a God
2. God Created everything and everyone
3. There is a soul
4. There is an absolute moral code
5. There is a heaven and hell
6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience
7. Life has purpose and meaning
8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man
9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute
10. God is good
11. God loves you
12. God created you for a purpose
13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience
14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence
15. Angels and devils are real beings
16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

Any others?
Why do people have these delusions, if indeed, this is a godless universe?
What natural processes would impart such wholesale delusions, on the majority of human beings, in every culture, region, and era?

I propose a rational examination of the conclusions and implications of the Reality of the universe, once we make the assumptions. This is not necessarily a reflection of what anyone actually believes, but is just the logical progression of the belief.

The inverse of this assumption can also be examined. I wanted to start simply, at first.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle

I might also call many of these part of the common modern myth surrounding the modern Christian, especially, but not at all exclusively, the literalist Christian.

Now each of these has an element of truth that is important as a way for the individual to subjectively experience and manage the objective reality, so I don't see them as simply dismissable. What they need are modern replacements that are more in line with modern knowledge.

This sounds like a fun self-challenge so I will take your list and come up with "better delusions" that may strike you as less untrue...

Edit: OIC...you are a believer and you are playing, temporarily, the devil's advocate. Gotcha...maybe I will take your list and start another thread.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I thought I just told you why. Why is it theists do this so often? They receive an answer, and then act as if they haven't received any answer at all. Atheists I have seen/read at least address the answer, and either refute or accept it. Theists on the other hand so often just ignore and ask again. It is one of the most confounding behaviors I have ever borne witness to.

There is hope. I'm a theist who hopes to some day breed a race of super-theists.

All you have to do is wait about 20 years for them to grow up and join RF.

Glad to have helped.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The presumption in a godless universe is materialism. No God. No spirit world. No soul. To premise 'no God!', but allow spirit beings, heaven, hell, and an eternal soul is highly illogical.

Materialism is not my presumption. It is one of four logical possibilities, idealism, neutral monism, and dualism being the other logical possibilities for the most fundamental aspect of nature from which all other manifestations derive. Matter is a derivative of energy, and energy may be derivative of something more fundamental, the way that space and time are actually derivate, from space-time, or electricity and magnetism from the electromagnetic force. Neutral monism proposes that mind and material substance both derive from a prior substance that is both and neither.

We have no way to rule any of these four possibilities in or out at this time, and there is no need to choose one, so agnosticism is the reasonable position. We don't know what aspect of reality is most fundamental.

Having said that, I confess to a preference for neutral monism just on the basis of the fact that history of science is one unification after another like the two I just mentioned. Newton unified the falling apple with the orbiting moon. Somebody unified the sun and stars. After Maxwell unified electromagnetism, this was unified with first the weak and then the strong nuclear forces, energy and mass (E=mc2), wave and particle, etc. So, with that in mind, I tend to see all of reality as derived from a substance more fundamental than either consciousness or physical reality, and the source of both. But that's just a compelling intuition, not a conclusion.

morality is a human construct, to control and manipulate people., in a godless universe. It is not real, but a delusion.. a manipulation.

Again, that does not resonate with this atheist.

Morality is a consequence of evolution, where behaviors that promote fecundity are selected for throughout much of the animal kingdom. In man, it takes a linguistic form, where mere urges become proclamations of right and wrong behavior based on those urges, which we experience as a conscience if we have one, a faculty that rewards and punishes us for our choices. Manipulation in its sinister sense isn't part of the process.

Collectively, we look for rules that will promote our core values such as the greatest opportunity for the greatest number, and tweak them until they best approximate our vision. I don't see manipulation there.

And individually, we do the same on a smaller scale, identifying that which we value and which will make our lives and the lives of others that we touch better. I don't see manipulation there, either. I don't know what you mean by morality being a delusion, but the pain and reward of bad and good moral behavior is very real. I still live with residual shame for the way my friends and I viciously teased a classmate of ours who was very hard of hearing and spoke with deaf speech like somebody just coming from the dentist. Yeah, I was only eight, and hadn't developed a conscience yet, but when I eventually did, and I recalled my behavior, it punished me for my choice. That's pretty real albeit immaterial.

I think that you have a misconception of what atheism is and what atheists think. My world is godless as best I can tell, but I am not the person you describe. You recently started a thread entitled "Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity." Now, you're caricaturizing atheists in extremely simplistic terms..

How could there be a spirit world, at all, in an Atheistic naturalism/materialism based universe?

Whatever a spirit is, why does it need a god to exist?

If this is a godless universe, delusion seems quite universal, among human beings.

The reason for that has already been explained to you several times. I left three terms from psychology that account for the proclivity to see patterns and agency where none exist. Man's gods and religions phase connect the periods between when man first asked questions, and when he eventually discovered his naturalistic answers several millennia later.

why would the human brain be 'flawed?' Would this not be an evolved survival trait, or something? How could believing in delusions improve survivability?

The brain is always evolving to keep up with changes in man and his environment. We still carry many if not most or all of our instincts from pre-human days, some of which may be maladaptive in our modern world.

Why is this delusional tendency so common in man? It seems counterintuitive.

Dawkins has an interesting hypothesis. He proposes that religion arose as a result of co-opting the natural tendency of people, especially children, to unquestioningly submit to authority figures, especially fathers and tribal chiefs - a behavior which offers a survival advantage.

Also, add the intuition to impute agency to nature, which we inherited from the beasts. Better to assume that that sound or movement was due to a conscious agent, run, and to have been wrong than the other way around. Thus lightning and thunder became gods warring once linguistic thought and ideas such as that became possible.

Given these proclivities in man, it's nor surprising that gods were invented to explain the wrath of nature, and religions established with priesthoods ostensibly to appease these gods with offerings and obedience. You referred to manipulation above. This is manipulation at the grandest scale, using the literary device of a god for those wishing to exploit others by usurping its alleged authority when speaking as if channeling a divine command

Dawkins offers the example of the moth spiraling into the flame or light bulb as an illustration of this usurpation of an instinct by a modern development. If you ask what survival advantage that behavior provided the moth, the answer is the same as with religious activities : none. Following paths using light sources evolved when the only night lights were celestial bodies, bodies that were so far away that their beams, which the moth uses to navigate, are parallel for practical purposes. It's the radial beams emanating from nearby light sources that confound the moth and condemn it to spiraling into the light.

Dawkins' larger point is that just because a behavior is widespread doesn't mean that it offers a survival advantage. The moth's behavior is clearly destructive. Dawkins argues that man invests so much energy and consumes so many resources on this activity, religion, that like spiraling into a flame, it is actually counterproductive rather than conferring a survival advantage.

Would not it be better to face reality, rather than live under a delusion?

Yes, which is why I avoid faith, the quickest path to a false belief.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
IF.. this is a godless universe, THEN... any belief in supernatural, spirit/soul, meaning, morality, heaven, a Creator.. ANYTHING, could only be a delusion, brought upon us by some unknown natural process. How does pretending that these imaginations have any benefit?

As I explained, if one allows oneself to remain dependent on these delusions, then challenges to them are frightening, and defending the delusion is comforting. This is what religious apologetics are for - comforting the believer barraged by a sea of evidence contradicting his faith-based beliefs as when visits a site like this and has his beliefs and arguments challenged, leaving him with an echo of cognitive dissonance. His religion comforts him then, whereas the unbeliever is feeling no such cognitive dissonance hearing contradictions of his evidence-based beliefs from the religious.

how does presupposing eternal existence, a Supreme Being, consequence for thoughts, words, deeds, and heaven/hell bring comfort?

It comforts those who didn't develop outside of religion. Religion as we know it in the West tends to be infantilizing, or more properly, prevents proper maturation. He is expected to obey orders allegedly from a god unquestioningly, he is encouraged to persist in magical thinking through prayer and belief in the supernatural, his moral development is stunted by the perception of a judgmental god watching over him, recording naughty and nice, and intending to reward or punish him for his choices. This keeps him in the same state he was in when being a good boy gets a cookie, and stealing a cookie gets a slap. It's not authentic moral behavior if one is acting to receive awards or avoid punishments. Like I said, children do that.

One becomes accustomed to the feeling that he is being watched over and cared for as a parent would do, but whereas one learns independence from his parents, he never learns to be independent of this imagined constant presence. Add being called sinner (translate bad boy) that is utterly dependent on a god and can do nothing for himself without this god, and you foster the dependency of childhood in the adult.

Try to take this away from somebody raised like this, and their world comes undone. They become disoriented and fearful, and run back to the comfort of prayer and religious belief. So, yes, religion is comforting, but it comforts an angst that it creates, or perpetuates into adulthood in the way that a cigarette comforts the smoker if somebody takes his cigarettes away until discomfort sets in, and he smokes one. Neither is an enviable situation to be in - to need such comforting.

If one grows up in an atheistic ideology like secular humanism, he learns early that the universe may be almost empty, and contain no gods at all, he learns not to be ashamed that he is an animal or ape, he learns to stand on his own two feet and take responsibility for his condition rather than praying to a god to help him, he develops a conscience that replaces the judgmental eye-in-the-sky, he learns to accept that his life may be finite and his consciousness end at death, that he may never see his deceased loved ones again, that life on earth may be the only consciousness for light years, that nobody is watching over him or will answer prayers, and that things don't get better if we don't make them better. He learns to assume responsibility for himself, to think for himself, and to assume authority over his life - not pray to an unseen god to show him the way. And he doesn't need the comforting of religion, because he needs no comforting. And if he is not a smoker, he doesn't need the relief cigarettes bring a withdrawing smoker.

There's an old joke along the lines of, "It's fine to talk to God providing God doesn't talk back."

You might like this :

"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and Christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd." - Sam Harris


My use of 'benefit', was in the context of deliberate self delusion.. pretending 'meaning!', in a meaningless, random universe.

Atheists I have seen/read at least address the answer, and either refute or accept it. Theists on the other hand so often just ignore and ask again. It is one of the most confounding behaviors I have ever borne witness to.

I've heard it called the fundie shuffle.

Some philosophers argue that in a godless universe, God would become necessary.

Does that make sense to you?

I have an argument for this being a godless universe that I find compelling. Please tell me what you think. The argument consists of a list of things that one might find in a universe with a god, only one of which would be possible in a godless universe.

For example, a universe with a god might or might not have regular physical laws, since an omnipotent god doesn't need gravity to keep the planets in orbit, but a godless one does.

A universe with a god might or might not have a holy book that no man could have written, but in a godless universe, we will only have the words of fallible humans.

A universe with a god might have that god manifest or not, but in a godless universe, there can be no such manifestations.

And we can go on and on listing truths in this form, always discovering that what we find is what we would expect in a godless universe.

Consider the argument in another context. I am going to flip a coin that is either loaded to always come up tails, or is a fair coin. The first flip is tails. I don't really have much evidence either way yet. After five flips, we have tails five times. OK, that happens.

Now we cast the situation in analogous language. In the case we have a fair coin, it might come up heads or tails, but a loaded coin will only come up tails. After 100 flips, and a 100 tails, it becomes apparent that one should not bet on heads.

One can only conclude in the case of a god that if one exists, it is perfectly imitating a nonexistent god, and can be viewed and interacted with as such.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
what if we don't agree? Its down to 'might makes right', for most all of human history.
And it has, hasn't it? Come to "might makes right" in the past, I mean? Strange how this universe of ours keeps looking more and more like it is already your "godless" one as we discuss these topics.

It doesn't matter. That is my point. In a godless universe , 'meaning!' is a delusion. There is no meaning, and any pretense of significance or 'purpose!', is a delusion.

Again, it doesn't. It is a human construct, and any moralizing can be picked and chosen for expediency or personal preference. Nobody can say yours or mine are better or worse than anybody else.
But in a universe with God in it, what changes? Do we suddenly have purpose? How can we know? We ask God? Does He answer? How can we know that either?

Don't be so touchy. I'm looking for a causal process, not an assertion of belief, or conjecture.
Well, you're not going to get a black and white "this is why" for something like a question of "why do people prefer to believe delusions?" Up until the very moment my mom got caught using my identity to open yet another credit card that she intended to max out, I am sure she kept telling herself that it was somehow going to "be alright." Why would she do all of that? Do you think even she can answer that question with certainty?

So you claim. But fear is in all humans. Are you suggesting that atheists are inherently more fearless than theists?
This has honestly been my experience, but results may vary. Atheists don't tend to see Satan lurking in the corners. Atheists I know don't tend to need negative reinforcement to remain upstanding citizens. Atheists don't tend to relieve their burdens by putting it all on "something else." I don't know for sure, and have only anecdotal evidence... but it sure does seem to me to be the case based on what I see and experience.

Why do some atheists hold onto some of the delusions, like meaning, morality, soul, spirit, etc? Are they still gripped with fear? How can you know the mental state of everybody, and declare, 'Fear!' as the motivating factor for all delusional beliefs?
I admit that I can't. And this belief I have is very much like the beliefs that theists hold, I admit. It is based only on my own personal experience and anecdotal evidence and examination of and revelation from others. But, I do know that the more I see of theists behaviors and responses to various aspects of life, the more I confirm that my predictions about their behaviors and motivating factors hold to the model I have set forth as my test case. Take your ideas of soul/spirit. Motivation almost always seems to boil down to fear of death or mortality in my experience. That is where the conversation inevitably goes. "Well, if you don't believe in the soul, what do you think happens after we die?" Is that not a question laden with fear about what it might be that happens after we die? Do you think the person who asks that question looks forward with avid glee (let alone in a state of neutrality) to hear the response of someone who doesn't believe in a soul?

Yes, everyone believes something. Perhaps an existential examination of belief, and the factors that comprise them would be an interesting topic.
Yes, we all believe things. Some of those things are built of stronger stuff than others, obviously. But a person who hails under the label "atheist" needn't proactively "believe" anything in particular. They only don't believe in god(s). That's all you know to start. As to what they "believe," you'd have to ask them.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
For example, a universe with a god might or might not have regular physical laws, since an omnipotent god doesn't need gravity to keep the planets in orbit, but a godless one does.
It might also have humans who discover plastic and destroy themselves through its production and deposition all over their planet. Their attempts at polity and self restraint proven worthless, they might resort to a higher authority. That could have dire consequences for people who just want to live their own way. It could be very annoying to them, to us.

A universe with a god might or might not have a holy book that no man could have written, but in a godless universe, we will only have the words of fallible humans.
It might be a universe in which people decide together to have some common rules whereby they will not destroy themselves, and then they might discover in the process that God exists and is not terribly concerned if humanity is destroyed. There are all kinds of may and may-nots.

A universe with a god might have that god manifest or not, but in a godless universe, there can be no such manifestations.
Also not an argument. A godless universe might manifest gods or give the appearance of them in some way. How would a tiny human know, and what would it matter? Despite that in our universe people constantly posit the existence of gods, spirits, ghosts, supernatural influences, luck, magic, ancestors watching over them, demons causing havoc, the severity of life requiring an exchange in blood for birth. That might or might not happen in a godless universe? So?

And we can go on and on listing truths in this form, always discovering that what we find is what we would expect in a godless universe.
We've seen what happens when people believe in God for the wrong reasons such as for scientific ones or because of prophetic proofs or because they were required to. Its not good, is it? It kind of makes sense for God to be invisible and undetectable, and thus its a good thing that you and I can only say might or might not. That might or might not show God is wise to remain hidden.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Here is a list of what can only be called 'delusions', IF this is a godless universe :

1. There is a God
2. God Created everything and everyone
3. There is a soul
4. There is an absolute moral code
5. There is a heaven and hell
6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience
7. Life has purpose and meaning
8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man
9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute
10. God is good
11. God loves you
12. God created you for a purpose
13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience
14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence
15. Angels and devils are real beings
16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

Any others?
Why do people have these delusions, if indeed, this is a godless universe?
What natural processes would impart such wholesale delusions, on the majority of human beings, in every culture, region, and era?

I propose a rational examination of the conclusions and implications of the Reality of the universe, once we make the assumptions. This is not necessarily a reflection of what anyone actually believes, but is just the logical progression of the belief.

The inverse of this assumption can also be examined. I wanted to start simply, at first.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle


If this IS a Godless Universe, then it would look exactly the same as a Universe with a God. A reality with God-beliefs, is the same as a reality without God-beliefs. God is totally irrelevant to the nature of reality or the Universe. No one knows the nature of anything that does not exist(good or bad, loves you or hates you). Unless they also don't exist. Our purpose as primates, is to survive and procreate. All emotions, needs and desires are hardwired into our genetic makeup, and our endocrine system.

People have delusions that something must exist, that is greater than the sum total of themselves, because of the brain's ability to compartmentalize information, and because of our innate need for answers to questions. It doesn't matter if the answers are real or imaginary. The mind can accept both as real, even in the absence of objective evidence. If thousands believe in aliens, ghosts, Thor, or other Gods, the hive mentality will accept these beliefs to avoid dissonance.

You can easily substitute anything you want for the word, "God", and your premises would not change. Why not use one of the thousands of other Deities, in place of the word, "God"? Or, why not use the name of a make believe fairy tale character? Why specifically your God? No matter how convoluted, or tortuous your creative logic tries to spin your belief, it will always end up as just another argument from ignorance, and another gap filler.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Here is a list of what can only be called 'delusions', IF this is a godless universe :

1. There is a God
2. God Created everything and everyone
3. There is a soul
4. There is an absolute moral code
5. There is a heaven and hell
6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience
7. Life has purpose and meaning
8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man
9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute
10. God is good
11. God loves you
12. God created you for a purpose
13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience
14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence
15. Angels and devils are real beings
16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

I'm going to move sideways a bit from the intention of the OP but maybe it will not be so sideways...as a person who claims to have a believer on one shoulder and a skeptic on the other, I have a personal interest in both sides and so I will propose my answer to these belief-truths that are in accord with science-truths at least for the modern ear...

1. There is a God

There is an experience of God as a psychological phenomenon which spans throughout human history and culture. God is a useful, imaginal being.

2. God Created everything and everyone

If we define God as that which existed before the Universe then sure. But what did exist before the Universe?

I would replace this with: God is that which created everything and everyone as an actual, historical reality out of an objective, ordered possibility with the subjective actualities of the past determining the objective background for new creation in the present

Combining 1 and 2 we get God is the psychological phenomenon which we find our instinctually-based sense of being as a product of a historical progression of actualities ("accidents"/"miracles") out of a much larger realm of possibility which then, in-turn determines the objective background for the later historical progression of actualities.

Alternately, God is the intelligent story of our Universe's actual history as a creative exploration of choices made out of a broader range of possibility.

3. There is a soul

The brain-mind gives rise to a sense of self in a logical and moral domain such that we can easily determine and communicate our sense of self to ourselves and others. We exist as as the center of our logical-linguistic and moral narrative gravity.

4. There is an absolute moral code

An objective sense of morality is found when comparing moral belief systems across all cultures and through all time. Fundamental commonalities can be found even while many differences in detail are also found between such moralities. This suggests that all humans share a common, adaptive moral sense which differs somewhat based on personal and social historical experience

5. There is a heaven and hell

Souls can perceive that one's overall reality is predominantly either good or evil. This overall moral attitude toward reality expresses the individual's sense of self as valuable and adaptable to the reality within which it exists.

6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience

Love is an instinct and emotion and psychological attitude that is seen as deeply a part of one's personal historical decision making and the drive that has carried them into the current reality in which they find their soul's immersed. Love reflects the instinct to reproduce as well as the need for safety. On a higher level of cognitive culture this includes finding one's own deep psychology complemented by an "other" who is seen as a committed partner in one's own health and adaptability even as one contributes unselfishly to that other's health and adaptability. Such relationships do much to qualify the sense of one's soul as being in a good or evil world.

7. Life has purpose and meaning

Each soul can find its own story as a meaningful part of the story of the Universe as a whole. That purpose and meaning is co-created between the soul and the reality if finds itself in. This may be found as an easy given for some while it can be a struggle for others. Some find it and lose it, some never find it. But the promise of purpose and meaning is strongly felt if not always achieved.

8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man

Part of what finds as one's special talents and passions are apparently determined by one's individual body, experience and society of origin or inclusion. This creates a sort of objective contribution as to what is one's souls own wealth and resulting responsibility to others.

9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute

This is a childish sense of morality. There is good and bad but nothing in our experience is absolute although, deep in our linguistic minds, such an intuition is necessary for quick creative thinking. In practical experience, however, this is typically not realized.

10. God is good

God is good to the extent that God too is negotiating with a reality outside His/Her/Its personal full control. The story that God is spinning is one of suffering and overcoming adversity, of creating a creation that progresses in order, possibility and complexity even as it expresses a specific path, one among many.

11. God loves you

Between God and the individual soul there is a deep, mutually supportive bond

12. God created you for a purpose

Your soul emerges out of the reality of God's creation in a way that is it primed to take a place as part of that story of God. The possibilities are open but some possibilities may objectively be much more applicable than others.

13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience

Part of the soul is one's self-awareness as being the center of a moral narrative

14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence

The heaven and hell of the soul is the actuality that choice makes out of possibility. Once we choose that event becomes partially immutable and the consequences bear fruit. However those consequences can be mitigated or even transcended through further spiritual effort

15. Angels and devils are real beings

Angels and devils are, like God, useful imaginal beings. However, believing in them literally to the exclusion of other experiential knowledge is not beneficial.

16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

The imaginal is a complimentary opposite to the actual and is where we, in our souls, can contemplate how to make difficult moral and personal decisions in a way in which we can accept and appreciate the consequences. In this "dimension" we can do the work of choosing wisely so that our souls are steered more toward an experience of life as heaven and less as life as hell although joy and suffering are, perhaps, unavoidable.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Here is a list of what can only be called 'delusions', IF this is a godless universe :

1. There is a God
2. God Created everything and everyone
3. There is a soul
4. There is an absolute moral code
5. There is a heaven and hell
6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience
7. Life has purpose and meaning
8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man
9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute
10. God is good
11. God loves you
12. God created you for a purpose
13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience
14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence
15. Angels and devils are real beings
16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

Any others?
Why do people have these delusions, if indeed, this is a godless universe?
What natural processes would impart such wholesale delusions, on the majority of human beings, in every culture, region, and era?

I propose a rational examination of the conclusions and implications of the Reality of the universe, once we make the assumptions. This is not necessarily a reflection of what anyone actually believes, but is just the logical progression of the belief.

The inverse of this assumption can also be examined. I wanted to start simply, at first.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle
"Why do people have these delusions, if indeed, this is a godless universe?"

It is a good question.
I maintain that "Godless Universe" is indeed a delusion as "Godless Universe" is neither supported by the truthful "Word of G-d*" nor from proper "Science**". Right, please?

Regard
______________
*Quran
** Form a text book of science or from a peer-reviewed article published in science journal of repute.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
People have that natural tendency to appeal to a higher power. Something stronger than themselves.

The reality is there is no God in the universe so it stands to reason people would just make up a god of their own and pretty much call it a day.
 
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