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Featured Definition of Magic for debate

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by 1137, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. 1137

    1137 I have come into being like Set
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    "Magic is the attempt to either (1) increase and utilize one's free will, or (2) submit ones free will to something viewed as greater."

    1. Why call it magic? Free will is more or less unnatural in itself. Obviously it arose from nature, but it allows us to question nature, manipulate it, counter it and use it as we wish. The definition acknowledges that the mind is something more than and separate from the world around it, and can choose how to act.

    2. Why two definition? As simple as white v. black magic. The white magician seeks to submit to something higher, consciously or not, such as state, church, god, or even something like materialism or determinism. The black magician seeks to isolate itself from these influences rather than submit to them, to become a separate force.

    3. But, do we have free will? The answer seems to be a rather obvious yes. From emotional regulation to modern science, from cognitive therapy to metacognition, it literally all suggests some degree of free will. Perhaps free will is not inherent, no, but the definition accounts for that.
     
    #1 1137, Feb 17, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  2. Willamena

    Willamena Just be there, doing that
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    Just an attempt? Not a success?
     
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  3. 1137

    1137 I have come into being like Set
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    Success is the outcome. Practitioners can fail at magic.
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Depends on the words used, and then the different forms/schools of magic can get very complex in defining them.

    Magick (Thelema) is Aleister Crowley's belief about using will as force.

    Magic is not knowing how the trick is done. :innocent:
     
  5. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    It's mostly misdirection and various sleight of hand technqiues.
     
  6. 1137

    1137 I have come into being like Set
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    Crowley makes sandwich making magic, which I don't accept. Obviously we aren't discussing stage magic.

    By what terrible reasoning did you conclude we are discussing stage magic on a religious debate forum? Let's think things through.
     
  7. buddhist

    buddhist Well-Known Member

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    I define "magic" as the application of the energies of consciousness towards the operation of the (usually unseen) laws of nature on its various levels, whether directly, or indirectly (e.g. attempting to manipulate another consciousness to perform an action on your behalf).

    The "white magician" IMO rarely attempts to use magic, having understood with wisdom the long-term and widespread effects of magic and their proportional consequences according to the laws of kamma. The "black magician" has a short-term view, performing magic to gratify his or her immediate selfish desires.
     
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  8. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    I didn't realize there was any other kind.
     
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  9. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Certainly not a definition that I abide by, but running with the premise, some questions for consideration:

    You speak of "free will" as being "increased" by magic. How do you quantify free will to measure an increase? Is free will quantifiable at all? If so, isn't it just a "you have it or you don't" or binary variable rather than a continuous variable? If we understand it as a binary variable, how is it possible to do anything other than utilize free will, given it is always "on?"
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Unfortunately we can't really know how much Aleister had will power, unless we've witnessed his Magick...

    Which is already what you put as your definition of magic. :confused:
    If that was meant in context of the other reply about magic, 'not knowing how a trick is done'...

    Then you've limited the scope of magic, and not seen how far that statement reaches. :innocent:
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Did someone say "magic"?

     
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    "Magic" (if we aren't talking about stage magic) describes purported human actions that go beyond what we have good reason to think is physically possible.

    Magic lives in the intersection between "you can't PROVE it's fake" and "I have no reason to believe it's real."
     
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  13. 1137

    1137 I have come into being like Set
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    We do seem to be able to measure free will to ask extent, such as through emotional regulation. We can certainly find ways of telling whether person X or Y is more regulated than the other. It can't be binary because it's a sliding scale, not a yes or no.

    As always you address no aspect of the op, instead striking up your own little discussion instead. Good times :)
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    We all learn from our mistakes, the clauses of Karma isn't to prevent the wise from acting righteously; yet to prevent the ego from challenging.

    As we become one with water, its flow doesn't always cause waves; it is the force that is used, which leads to the turmoil.

    Thus the master of magic no longer says, "move"; it moves in that direction as it already wanted to. :innocent:
    We're inside the Matrix, there is a CPU that listens to faith/trust/will.
    Because there are multiple quantum dimensions divided by frequency...

    Somethings lower frequency (black magic); whilst somethings maintain balance or even increase frequency in some cases (white magic).
    We're inside a holographic universe, where the whole of this time period has already been seen...

    Thus if everything is options given to us, and we don't get to do much other than choose between them; did we really have full control over anything or is it much bigger than we can comprehend in a finite mind. :innocent:
     
  15. buddhist

    buddhist Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it's just that the wise seek to gain a more expansive understanding of the consequences of their actions, and are thus more careful when and if they act.

    This reminds me of the 31 planes of existence as seen in early Buddhism. The higher one goes in the round of samsara, the more power and sight one gains & possesses ... yet at the same time, there is less motivation to act.
     
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  16. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Wouldn't that mean they have more "magic" rather than more "free will?" That is, they are better at utilizing the free will they have?
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I address the OP directly, just not in a way that's convenient for fans of magic.

    When something is accepted as physically possible, it ceases to be magic.
     
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  18. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    For you, perhaps. The term "magic" is polysemantic. Painfully so, IMHO.
     
  19. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Magic is the ability to accomplish ones tasks without physical intervention. For instance this response it totally and completely without the use of physical devices, I just think what I want to write and say shazam, and it's sent.
     
  20. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Just change some letters - hence, magjyck. It contributes to the mysterious aura, as well.
     
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