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Defining Nabi and Rasool.

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Feb 23, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    (1) Almost every Rasool was a Nabi and almost every Nabi was a Rasool.
    (2)A Nabi means receiver of a divine revelation/book meant to be held to by the people as proof and guidance from God.
    (3)A Rasool is one who upon is to deliver clear message(s) from God and bring it down to the minds of the masses.

    It's not the case that all of the message to be delivered must be words of God but can be teachings the Messenger paraphrases in his own words.

    As for a Nabi, the book which is to be established as a proof from God, is God's words and not paraphrased by the Nabi.

    A case when a Nabi is not a Messenger, is when, the messages are all established that God wants to be established on the masses, so the revelation just is revealed to verify the Prophet from God and to be guidance on top of guidance light on top of light.

    A Messenger that is not a Nabi, is when messages of God need to be revived in the minds of the people paraphrased in the Messengers own words, but no revelation is revealed to the people by that Messenger.

    The 12 Imams are all Messengers but none of them is a Nabi for example.

    Now to prove this we can simply quote one verse 5:67. According to 5:67, there was something revealed that Mohammad (pbuh&hf) was suppose to deliver and convey and if he didn't, he didn't convey the message.

    Because jump if you didn't jump you didn't jump is meaningless, we can derive:

    (1) This cannot be saying "recite the Quran if you don't recite it all, you have not recited it all", so what God revealed here doesn't refer to delivering a Quranic verse.
    (2) It's saying you need to convey a major thing God has revealed, and according to history, this was regarding the Wilayah of Ali and Ghadeer.
    (3) We can see here, Resalah is not just Quran. So resalah is conveying here something in Quran to the minds of all people through out time but paraphrased in the words of Ghadeer speech.
    (4) This is despite Wilayah of Ali and Ahlulbayt clear in Quran, it's saying, ignorance and sorcery has befallen your people and blindness to Ali might take upon humanity, deliver a speech to convey it to all generations, that Ali has your Wilayah over humanity and that this the weight of Quran and your family, two weights as a single unit - the rope of God.

    The Prophet conveyed such a way, that, manifest the chosen family theme of Quran and manifest the position of Ali and Fatima.

    Like wise, Ahlulbayt, conveyed words, that revive Quran and manifest much of Quran. They are delivering messages from God regarding what God revealed, but paraphrased in their own way.
     
  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @Link

    To start on this subject, please help me translate the following hadithes:


    الفرق بين الرسول والنبي والمحدث) * 1 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر، عن ثعلبة بن ميمون، عن زرارة قال: سألت أبا جعفر عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " وكان رسولا نبيا " ما الرسول وما النبي؟ قال: النبي الذي يرى في منامه ويسمع الصوت ولا يعاين الملك، والرسول الذي يسمع الصوت ويرى في المنام ويعاين الملك، قلت: الامام ما منزلته؟ قال: يسمع الصوت ولا يرى ولا يعاين الملك، ثم تلا هذه الآية: وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي ولا محدث [1].
    2 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن إسماعيل بن مرار قال: كتب الحسن بن العباس المعروفي إلى الرضا عليه السلام: جعلت فداك أخبرني ما الفرق بين الرسول والنبي والامام؟ قال: فكتب أو قال: الفرق بين الرسول والنبي والامام أن الرسول الذي ينزل عليه جبرئيل فيراه ويسمع كلامه وينزل عليه الوحي وربما رأى في منامه نحو رؤيا إبراهيم عليه السلام، والنبي ربما سمع الكلام وربما رأى الشخص ولم يسمع والامام هو الذي يسمع الكلام ولا يرى الشخص.
    3 - محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن الأحول قال سألت أبا جعفر عليه السلام عن الرسول والنبي والمحدث، قال: الرسول الذي يأتيه جبرئيل قبلا [2] فيراه ويكلمه فهذا الرسول، وأما النبي فهو الذي يرى في منامه نحو رؤيا إبراهيم ونحو ما كان رأى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله من أسباب النبوة قبل الوحي حتى أتاه جبرئيل عليه السلام من عند الله بالرسالة وكان محمد صلى الله عليه وآله حين جمع له النبوة وجاءته الرسالة من عند الله يجيئه بها جبرئيل ويكلمه بها قبلا، ومن الأنبياء من جمع له النبوة ويرى في منامه ويأتيه الروح ويكلمه ويحدثه، من غير أن يكون يرى في اليقظة، وأما المحدث فهو الذي يحدث فيسمع، ولا يعاين ولا يرى في منامه.


    الكافي- ط الاسلامية - الشيخ الكليني - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
     
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Salam

    You know some hadiths that support your view but seem not to be aware of any that go against it.

    (1) There are many hadiths that Imams see Angels as well, in Al-Kafi as well.
    (2) There are many ziyarats that they are descending place of Angels.
    (3) There is no reason to assume the spiritual world is veiled from the Imams, they after all, are the leaders assigned to guide Jinn include the highest saints among them called Angels.

    Here is a hadith:

    “I heard Abu Ja'far ('a) say: The house of 'Alī and Fātimah is the room of the Messenger of Allah (s), and the roof of their house is the 'Arsh of the Lord of the worlds. And at the bottom of their house there is an uncovered opening to the 'Arsh, the mi'rāj of revelation; and the angels bring down revelation upon them in the morning and in the evening and every hour and twinkle of an eye.

    The angels are in ceaseless groups, some descending and some ascending. And Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, disclosed to Ibrāhīm the heavens till he saw the 'Arsh and He increased his seeing power. And Allah increased the seeing power of Muhammad, 'Alī, Fātimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn ('a). They used to see the 'Arsh and they found no roof over their houses except the 'Arsh. Their houses were roofed with the 'Arsh of the Beneficent, and the ascensions of the angels and the Spirit in them, with the permission of their Lord, for every affair in peace. 'I said: “for every affair'.” He said: 'In every affair.' I said: 'Is that revelation?' He said: 'Yes'.

    Al-Burhān Exegesis, vol. 4, ”Surah al-Qadr,” hadīth 25, p. 487

    In Ziyaratal Jamiah Al-Kabir, it is said:

    "And the choice of the Mursaleen (Those sent (with either a revelation or messages)"

    Anbiya and Rasools are both Mursaleen, and since Imams aren't Anbiya, they are of the latter category.

    لسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ يَا أَهْلَ بَيْتِ النُّبُوَّةِ
    وَ مَوْضِعَ الرِّسَالَةِ
    وَمُخْتَلَفَ الْمَلاَئِكَةِ
    وَمَهْبِطَ الْوَحْيِ
    وَمَعْدِنَ الرَّحْمَةِ


    That's from ziyarat Jamiah al-kabeer

    Also:

    وَصَفْوَةَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

    "And the choice (of God) of the Mursaleen"

    That's from same Ziyarat.
     
    #3 Link, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  4. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. We will resolve the apparent conflict fairly! I am at work. Maybe later.

    For now, let me propose something. Angel's represent different things.
    Only gabriel is the Angel of Revelation. Do Imams receive and see Gabriel?
    Something to search. I will get back on this later.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    There's no need to resolve contradiction. Even if you do, it doesn't mean that's the true interpretation of the hadiths you resolved. Making two opposite facts come together, doesn't mean they should. If the Imams intended to convey the opposite to this, then these are hadiths that suggest, they see Angels, and there is no reason to interpret in them in a way in line with the opposite.

    This is because hadiths are to be insights, and it's not about trying to reconcile them all, but seeing the insights in Quran and in truth and through reason and light.

    If we invent a rule, we should reconcile all hadiths if we can, there occurs the problem, that you cannot express a lot of facts. A lot of truth Ahlulbayt want to manifest, due to how language works, becomes nearly impossible for them to do so. For we can just fabricate a lie and interpret what they said according to the lie.

    This is why truth of Ahlulbayt (as) words should be tested with Quran. If Quran verifies, accept, if it rejects reject, it's neutral as far as you know, you remain neutral, till you either know it's verified or rejected.

    In the case of the hadiths you quoted, they add an additional phrase "nor one spoken to", has it occurred to why that third category is not mentioned in Quran, but the hadith is saying the original verse had it? Why would God reveal this important fact and then delete it?

    To me, it's clearly a fabrication. There are many hadiths that Gabriel and Michael use to be with Ali during battles. And they are included in the Angels that visit the Imams, the exception is not mentioned "except Jibrael and Michael".
     
    #5 Link, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Also we have many hadiths from Ahlulbayt members "we are who Jibrael use to descend to" to emphasize on their position.

    Hadiths regarding almost everything, have an something say x and then something implying not x. Tusi who studied hadiths all his life, said almost everything in hadiths with a few exceptions here there has contradictions within hadiths.

    The methodology that you should try to reconcile as much contradictions as possible leaves to the case, that despite Hadiths have authentic narrations that the Prophet said God curses whoever has a tatoo, it's not considered haram to have it, even though God cursing implies not just it being forbidden, but a serious type of forbidden category. Whether it's truly haram or halal is not the point, the point, is, they interpret curse here as a lesser type curse and that it's simply makruh, not because of any hadith saying it's halal, but because regarding other subjects, they reconcile authentic hadiths one saying x is halal and another saying doing x makes you cursed by God, to imply it's only hated by God, but not forbidden.

    This methodology is dishonesty, and injustice to the eloquence of the Imams. Imams knew how to speak clearly and eloquently. What is really happening is we are mixing truth with falsehood. And we aren't facing up that many of are so called authentic chains have problematic hadiths, that contradict other hadiths, with authentic chains.

    The Quran can unlock all of the religion explained if we let it.

    And similarly Sunnis have numerous hadiths to say to wipe feet and numerous saying to wash, and instead of acknowledging this a disaster in their ilmel rijal system where both hadiths have been massively transmitted by authentic chains but contradict, they say, wipe means on a sock or a shoe while wash is on the skin. This is pathetic in my view.
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, we stop it then.
     
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