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Define Religion

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Paul's letters are dated between 50 and 58 CE.
The first gospel is that of Mark, c. 75 CE, datable by its mention ("prediction") of the sack of Jerusalem 70 CE, and by its author's use of Josephus' report of the trial of Jesus son of Ananias in Wars, published 75 CE, as the template for Mark's trial scene of Jesus. Matthew and Luke borrow passages wholesale from Mark, hence are later, mid 80s. And John is last, mid or late 90s.

To me the first Gospel is that of Matthew. First because first it was written in Hebrew shortly after Jesus died.
Whereas, Mark wrote in the 60's with the non-Jews in mind. Luke wrote in the 50's. Yes, John late 90's.
Paul's 'earlier' writings do reference Matthew, so Matthew could have been available to Paul.
for example:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 matches Matthew 28:6
1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 matches Matthew 26:26
1 Corinthians 16:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:6 matches Matthew 26:38
1 Thessalonians 5:6 matches Matthew 25:13
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7; 2 Corinthians 6:14 Matches Matthew 24:12
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 matches Matthew 24:36
1 Thessalonians 5:2 matches Matthew 24:43
2 Corinthians 1:7 matches Matthew 20:23
1 Corinthians 3:5-7; 2 Corinthians 1:24 matches Matthew 20:26
1 Corinthians 7:7 matches Matthew 19:11
1 Corinthians 7:32, 38; 1 Corinthians 9:5 matches Matthew 19:12
1 Corinthians 6:2 matches Matthew 19:28
1 Corinthians 5:1-5,11-13 matches Matthew 18:17
1 Corinthians 10:32; 2 Corinthians 6:3 matches Matthew 17:27
1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Corinthians 3:11; 1 Corinthians 1:2 matches Matthew 16:18
1 Corinthians 2:1,9 matches Matthew 13:11
2 Corinthians 10:1 matches Matthew 11:29
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Religion is an organized practice of faith with a set of convictions about metaphysical realities and the nature of life and it's meaningfulness.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
CTo me the first Gospel is that of Matthew. First because first it was written in Hebrew shortly after Jesus died.[/quote] You'll be aware, of course, that the claim it was first written in Hebrew is not supported by external evidence and the claimed internal evidence is not credited by a majority of bible historians. And how could it quote Mark at such length when, you say, Mark didn't exist? (That Mark is the first gospel is particularly persuasive because it alone explains the relationships of textual sources within the synoptics.)

But even if it was written in Hebrew ─ do yo mean Aramaic? ─ why would that make it the first gospel?
Whereas, Mark wrote in the 60's with the non-Jews in mind. Luke wrote in the 50's. Yes, John late 90's.
Paul's 'earlier' writings do reference Matthew, so Matthew could have been available to Paul.
for example:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 matches Matthew 28:6
1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 matches Matthew 26:26
1 Corinthians 16:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:6 matches Matthew 26:38
1 Thessalonians 5:6 matches Matthew 25:13
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7; 2 Corinthians 6:14 Matches Matthew 24:12
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 matches Matthew 24:36
1 Thessalonians 5:2 matches Matthew 24:43
2 Corinthians 1:7 matches Matthew 20:23
1 Corinthians 3:5-7; 2 Corinthians 1:24 matches Matthew 20:26
1 Corinthians 7:7 matches Matthew 19:11
1 Corinthians 7:32, 38; 1 Corinthians 9:5 matches Matthew 19:12
1 Corinthians 6:2 matches Matthew 19:28
1 Corinthians 5:1-5,11-13 matches Matthew 18:17
1 Corinthians 10:32; 2 Corinthians 6:3 matches Matthew 17:27
1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Corinthians 3:11; 1 Corinthians 1:2 matches Matthew 16:18
1 Corinthians 2:1,9 matches Matthew 13:11
2 Corinthians 10:1 matches Matthew 11:29
I checked the first few of your references, but one isn't quoting the other; rather, they're just telling the same story in their own words.

But if they're as you say, why don't they show that Matthew copied from Paul?

(On the face of it, I doubt very much that Matthew copied from Paul or Paul copied from Matthew ─ as far as I'm aware, the letters of Paul weren't known until Marcion used them in arguments in the mid-2nd century CE.)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
CTo me the first Gospel is that of Matthew. First because first it was written in Hebrew shortly after Jesus died.
You'll be aware, of course, that the claim it was first written in Hebrew is not supported by external evidence and the claimed internal evidence is not credited by a majority of bible historians. And how could it quote Mark at such length when, you say, Mark didn't exist? (That Mark is the first gospel is particularly persuasive because it alone explains the relationships of textual sources within the synoptics.)
But even if it was written in Hebrew ─ do yo mean Aramaic? ─ why would that make it the first gospel?
I checked the first few of your references, but one isn't quoting the other; rather, they're just telling the same story in their own words.
But if they're as you say, why don't they show that Matthew copied from Paul?.......)[/QUOTE]

No, I did mean Hebrew because Matthew was writing to the Jews first, then translated into Greek or even Aramaic which is what Jesus spoke.
Matthew Levi, who was a former tax collector, became closely associated with Jesus.
Matthew's account covers from Jesus' birth to the year Jesus died.
Paul does Not enter the picture as becoming a Christian until after Jesus was resurrected
The keys of the kingdom were first offered to the Jews when Jesus was alive, then 'after' his resurrection the way was opened for the Samaritans, then lastly opened up for the gentile people of the nations. (Mark wrote for non-Jews)
Matthew's account served as a bridge, so to speak, connecting the old Hebrew Scriptures with the new Christian Scriptures.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Religion is an organized practice of faith with a set of convictions about metaphysical realities and the nature of life and it's meaningfulness.
I could agree that Jesus 'practised organized faith' by teaching that Scripture is: religious truth - John 17:17
We can see Jesus confidence/faith in the old Hebrew Scriptures because Jesus used logical reasoning on them and often referred to them explaining and expounding them for us.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I could agree that Jesus 'practised organized faith' by teaching that Scripture is: religious truth - John 17:17
We can see Jesus confidence/faith in the old Hebrew Scriptures because Jesus used logical reasoning on them and often referred to them explaining and expounding them for us.
James 1:27 is an example of Christianity being a religion. There is a conviction about God's will and the nature of life in the passage.

My definition of religion is broad enough to include God based and non God based religions.

Christianity organizes its faith based on The Bible. There's the body of followers and the will of God according to that book.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I did mean Hebrew because Matthew was writing to the Jews first, then translated into Greek or even Aramaic which is what Jesus spoke.
The evidence, say people who know these things better than I do, doesn't support that view.

And you forgot to tell me ─ if the case were as you say (and I don't accept that it is) why would it not show that the author of Matthew copied from Paul and not vice versa?
Matthew's account covers from Jesus' birth to the year Jesus died.
But he wasn't there when Jesus was conceived, and he didn't hear any angels or witness the impregnation of Mary, nor was he in a position to check whether (as in Mark) some ordinary human was Jesus' father. He's a great fictionalizer, inventing stories so as to fit Jesus into them because he thinks they're "prophecies". Forgive me if I'm told you this before but here are some examples:

The author of Matthew required Mary to have been a virgin because the LXX in translating Isaiah 7:14 had rendered Hebrew 'almah, young woman, as parthenos, virgin;

He invented the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2

He invented the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.

He absurdly sat Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9;​

It's not as if he's the only author who does such things, but his examples are the most egregious.
Paul does Not enter the picture as becoming a Christian until after Jesus was resurrected.
None of the NT authors ever met an historical Jesus.
The keys of the kingdom were first offered to the Jews when Jesus was alive
Where, exactly?

And why should any Jew recognize Jesus as a messiah? A messiah was to be a civil, military or religious leader who would lead Israel back to political independence, and would become a messiah by being anointed by the Jewish priesthood. None of that was true of Jesus.

And of course Jesus (in Mark, Matthew and Luke but not in Paul or John) promised that God's Kingdom on Earth would be established by the Son of Man in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers. The promise is unambiguous and equally unambiguously nothing of the kind happened.
Matthew's account served as a bridge, so to speak, connecting the old Hebrew Scriptures with the new Christian Scriptures.
All four gospels are based on Mark, the synoptics closely and John loosely. And all four use the Tanakh as the basis of many of their stories about Jesus. Again, none of them ever met an historical Jesus.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It's not as if he's the only author who does such things, but his examples are the most egregious. None of the NT authors ever met an historical Jesus.Where, exactly?
And why should any Jew recognize Jesus as a messiah? A messiah was to be a civil, military or religious leader who would lead Israel back to political independence, and would become a messiah by being anointed by the Jewish priesthood. None of that was true of Jesus.
And of course Jesus (in Mark, Matthew and Luke but not in Paul or John) promised that God's Kingdom on Earth would be established by the Son of Man in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers. The promise is unambiguous and equally unambiguously nothing of the kind happened................

No, Jesus was clear-> Not in the first century. Please notice Luke 19:11
Not Jesus, but his followers they thought the kingdom was going to appear at that time.
Notice the illustration Jesus gives them at Luke 19:12-15 because Jesus explains that Jesus (as the nobleman) would first travel to a distant land (heaven) to secure kingly power before he would later return.
This is why John could write that we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! Rev. 22:20

According to the Bible, 'yes' NT authors met Jesus - Matthew 4:18-22.
Please notice Matthew 9:9 compared with Mark 2:14 & Luke 5:27-28 because those verses are about Matthew Levi.

The corrupted religious leaders had great influence over the people and those people wanted a political Messiah.
So, only those accepting Jesus' teachings would end up following Jesus.
John, at Revelation 11:15, does connect God's government (kingdom) to earth.
(Daniel 2:44; Daniel 4:17; Daniel 7:13-14; Psalms 2:6; Psalms 22:28)

Paul was mostly writing to Jesus ' brothers ' (Matthew 25:40) who have that first or heavenly calling.
Jesus ' other sheep ' do Not have that heavenly calling (Revelation 5:9-10; 20:6) but are offered Earth.
Those figurative 'sheep' are not the heavenly 'little flock' but the larger part of the flock who will inherit the Earth as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, Jesus was clear-> Not in the first century. Please notice Luke 19:11
Not Jesus, but his followers they thought the kingdom was going to appear at that time.
No, that's not what it says. Instead the promise is that the Kingdom will be established in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers ─

Mark 9:1 And he [Jesus] said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”​
According to the Bible, 'yes' NT authors met Jesus - Matthew 4:18-22.
The letters attributed to Peter in the NT are not written by a Galilean fisherman whose first language is Aramaic. They're written by an educated speaker of koine Greek.
Please notice Matthew 9:9
We have no idea who wrote the gospels. The present names were added in later centuries,

What is plain is that all four gospels are based on Mark (John more loosely than Matthew or Luke); and Mark wasn't written before 75 CE.
The corrupted religious leaders had great influence over the people and those people wanted a political Messiah.
In what Jewish sense were they corrupt?

As I pointed out, no educated Jew would recognize Jesus as a messiah at any level. Why then was it wrong of the Jewish authorities not to do so?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
No, that's not what it says. Instead the promise is that the Kingdom will be established in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers ─
Mark 9:1 And he [Jesus] said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.
Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.
Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”............................​

Luke 19:11-15 is about the kingdom coming as future. ( pray for God's kingdom to come ( thy kingdom come.....)
John wrote at Revelation 22:20 to pray to God for Jesus to come ! Revelation is set for our day - Revelation 1:10
If Jesus already came there would be No need to pray to God for Jesus to come !

Luke 9:27 is in connection to Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:28 about the 'Transfiguration Vision' - Matthew 17:9
Jesus only chose close disciples to see that 'Transfiguration Vision' confirming kingdom prophecies.

The generation that is alive at the fulfillment time of Matthew 24:13-14 is the generation of verse 34.
The ' season ' is now ripe because now the international declaring about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now nearing its final phase. Such a global scale has never before in history reached this world-wide peak.

Matthew 10:23 does have the future in mind. Jesus' followers would Not contact every person on Earth ( after all new people are born every day ) so Jesus' words includes modern-day disciples.
Matthew 10:22 includes more than the first 12 because it says 'hated by all people', That did Not happen in the 1st century.
In other words, the circuit ( the entire earth ) would be completed first which was Not done in the 1st century.
We have Not yet reached Jesus' 'Glory time' as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Luke 19:11-15 is about the kingdom coming as future. ( pray for God's kingdom to come ( thy kingdom come.....)
John wrote at Revelation 22:20 to pray to God for Jesus to come ! Revelation is set for our day - Revelation 1:10
If Jesus already came there would be No need to pray to God for Jesus to come ! [quote/] None of that alters the fact that in Mark, Matthew and Luke, Jesus promises that the Kingdom will be established on earth in the life of some of his hearers.

Just as set out in the quotes I gave you.

And as I may have remarked to you at another time, there's no such promise in John because by the 90s CE when John was written, it was apparent that this particular prophecy was not going to happen.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Many of us come here and discuss religions and religious topics. This often results in debate, confusion, misunderstandings and sometimes outright malice towards other members.

Part of this contention as I see it, is a lack of a coherent definition of what religion actually "is", you see it is an ill-defined, and often difficult to define concept. And it varies by time, place and tradition what form this takes, oftentimes.

So how would you define Religion? What is your personal one sentence definition of Religion? (Religious members only).

My definition is as follows: A Philisophical approach or framework to one's life, including traditions and customs, that shapes the way one interacts with both the physical and metaphysical aspects of reality.

A simple internet search gives this definition:
a particular system of faith and worship​

Is this inadequate?

Somethings religions may have that are not by themselves definitionally sufficient:
a philsophy (example: secular humanism)
a set of beliefs (example: scientific theory)
a tradition (example: movie night)
a scripture (example: the Quakers do not have a holy book)
a symbol (example: McDonald's uses a symbol of two golden arches)
a moral code or a code of ethics (example: secular morality)
a doctrine (example: the Monroe Doctrine)
a creation story (example: Buddhism)
a charity (example: Care International)​

Rather these are some things that can be religious because they are part of a particular system of faith and worship.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
A simple internet search gives this definition:
a particular system of faith and worship​

Is this inadequate?

Somethings religions may have that are not by themselves definitionally sufficient:
a philsophy (example: secular humanism)
a set of beliefs (example: scientific theory)
a tradition (example: movie night)
a scripture (example: the Quakers do not have a holy book)
a symbol (example: McDonald's uses a symbol of two golden arches)
a moral code or a code of ethics (example: secular morality)
a doctrine (example: the Monroe Doctrine)
a creation story (example: Buddhism)
a charity (example: Care International)​

Rather these are some things that can be religious because they are part of a particular system of faith and worship.

What is your personal one sentence definition of Religion.

That's what I asked about :)
 
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