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Define a Pagan Witch?
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Runt
Well-Known Member
Sure thing =P
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Most simply, a pagan is a nature worshipper and a follower of old Gods and Goddesses.
A witch is generally a pagan who strives to achieve practical ends by psychic means, for good, useful, and healing purposes. We call this "magic". (Black magic is, of course, possible as well, but most pagans do not agree with the practice of magic that is intended to harm).
Not all pagans are witches. Wicca is a branch of neopaganism. Most Wiccans are witches, but (you guessed it), not all witches are Wiccans.
Many people, when they hear the word "Wiccan" think that it is synonymous with "Satanist". This is an incorrect perception, and has been encouraged by uneducated Satanists who erroneously name themselves Wiccan while practicing Satanist rites. Real Satanists wouldn't be caught dead labeling themselves Wiccan, for in their eyes Wicca (which restricts itself to "white magic") is far too restrictive to their way of life. However, they do call themselves witches and warlocks (though Wiccans do NOT call themselves warlocks).
Wiccans are either solitary or practice in covens (formal or not depends on the coven). Covens are known for their small group autonomy, with no gulf between the "priests" and the "congregation" (the general belief is that all Wiccans are priests and priestesses; however people with more knowledge will often temporarily step into a position to teach or direct the others).
If you are interested in reading up on it, I suggest taking a peek at A Witches' Bible by Stewart and Janet Farrar. However, understand that the information contained within it is biased toward the views of only one of many traditions, and the rituals within are designed for a coven, the materials covered are of a coven philosophy, and most pagans are solitary.
________________________
Most simply, a pagan is a nature worshipper and a follower of old Gods and Goddesses.
A witch is generally a pagan who strives to achieve practical ends by psychic means, for good, useful, and healing purposes. We call this "magic". (Black magic is, of course, possible as well, but most pagans do not agree with the practice of magic that is intended to harm).
Not all pagans are witches. Wicca is a branch of neopaganism. Most Wiccans are witches, but (you guessed it), not all witches are Wiccans.
Many people, when they hear the word "Wiccan" think that it is synonymous with "Satanist". This is an incorrect perception, and has been encouraged by uneducated Satanists who erroneously name themselves Wiccan while practicing Satanist rites. Real Satanists wouldn't be caught dead labeling themselves Wiccan, for in their eyes Wicca (which restricts itself to "white magic") is far too restrictive to their way of life. However, they do call themselves witches and warlocks (though Wiccans do NOT call themselves warlocks).
Wiccans are either solitary or practice in covens (formal or not depends on the coven). Covens are known for their small group autonomy, with no gulf between the "priests" and the "congregation" (the general belief is that all Wiccans are priests and priestesses; however people with more knowledge will often temporarily step into a position to teach or direct the others).
If you are interested in reading up on it, I suggest taking a peek at A Witches' Bible by Stewart and Janet Farrar. However, understand that the information contained within it is biased toward the views of only one of many traditions, and the rituals within are designed for a coven, the materials covered are of a coven philosophy, and most pagans are solitary.
Runt
Well-Known Member
I think some adopted the word "witch" to rebel against Christianity, which for so long has tried to squash witchcraft as "devil worship" and actually pretty much eradicated paganism throughout much of the world for several centuries. Some Witches chose to call themselves WITCHES as basically a "look, here we are, and there is nothing you can do about us" attitude. While not exactly the most positive approach, it was similar to the way the feminist movement took back the world "*****" to make it lose its power. Only, these witches were trying to make it lose its power as a negative word and make it powerful as a positive word.
Others chose the name because it seemed to fit their practices the best.
We may also have historical reasons.
In the late 1800s there was a surge of fascination in the occult (partially fueled by Romanticism in the earlier part of the century). Aleister Crowley was part of group called the Golden Dawn that freely mixed ancient paganism, witchcraft, Christian-gnostic teachings, ritual magic, mysticism, and misogyny. Rumor has it (though historically we cannot be certain if this is accurate or not) that a few years later Gardner got permission from Crowley to found his own order, and somehow instead of ending up with another Golden Dawn he came up with Wicca. He supposedly rewrote much of the Golden Dawn's material, eliminating pretty much everything but the drawing on the beliefs of ancient pagan religions, ritual magic, and mysticism (although, reading his paper "The Laws", I personally believe the misogyny was not completely eliminated). Over the years Wicca was redefined and molded into what we have today: while it has become much more eclectic, agnostic, (and in some traditions includes a feminist approach to religion that focuses more on the Goddess than the God) than Gardner's original view, it is still a highly ritualistic religion with a somewhat rigid structure for rituals.
I am willing to bet (though I can't be sure) that the name "witch" resurfaced in the Golden Dawn before Wicca was created, and was adopted by Gardner, embraced by the witches, and empowered to mean something positive instead of something negative.
Others chose the name because it seemed to fit their practices the best.
We may also have historical reasons.
In the late 1800s there was a surge of fascination in the occult (partially fueled by Romanticism in the earlier part of the century). Aleister Crowley was part of group called the Golden Dawn that freely mixed ancient paganism, witchcraft, Christian-gnostic teachings, ritual magic, mysticism, and misogyny. Rumor has it (though historically we cannot be certain if this is accurate or not) that a few years later Gardner got permission from Crowley to found his own order, and somehow instead of ending up with another Golden Dawn he came up with Wicca. He supposedly rewrote much of the Golden Dawn's material, eliminating pretty much everything but the drawing on the beliefs of ancient pagan religions, ritual magic, and mysticism (although, reading his paper "The Laws", I personally believe the misogyny was not completely eliminated). Over the years Wicca was redefined and molded into what we have today: while it has become much more eclectic, agnostic, (and in some traditions includes a feminist approach to religion that focuses more on the Goddess than the God) than Gardner's original view, it is still a highly ritualistic religion with a somewhat rigid structure for rituals.
I am willing to bet (though I can't be sure) that the name "witch" resurfaced in the Golden Dawn before Wicca was created, and was adopted by Gardner, embraced by the witches, and empowered to mean something positive instead of something negative.
Azhria Lilu
Member
You've got this one slightly backwards here
..... Yes, not all pagans are witches... BUT... Wicca is a path in its own right and most pracitioners of wicca are witches.. but not all witches are wiccan.Sorry, again, not strictly true. While the majority of people who have no information on wicca assume that witches and satanists are the same thing... true satanists wouldn't dream of calling themselves wiccan in any way, shape or form as to them Wicca is far too restricting for their way of life. They would term themselves witches and warlocks however - as they use the black arts.
The witches bible will only give you the perspective of coven-based Wiccan teaching, a solitary Witch (like myself) would have a totally different perspective
Speaking from a personal perspective, I don't use the term witch as an "in your face" to anyone. I use it to define what I am in terms that people who aren't involved in my craft will recognise - a person who performs rites and rituals to supplement their life and worship the goddess.
we have lots of things that have historical significance.. I won't take up this thread listing them all tho
Sorry, again..... AC didn't found the Golden Dawn, and it wasn't a coven. The Golden Dawn was founded by William Westcott , Dr. Woodman and S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1888. AC joined the Golden Dawn in 1898. Due to internal bickering, the Golden Dawn dissolved in 1903 and AC went on to conceive Thelema.
This is not actually known for sure, but the majority of Pagans outside of the Gardnerian covens assume this is the case
AC didn't have anything to do with Witches or Wicca, apart from his association with Gardner. He never called himself nor any one else a witch. Gardner claims that Wicca comes from an ancient term - Witta - but there has, as yet, been no confirmation of the word Wicca being in evidence before Gardner released any of his books.
Sorry to be awkward, but I just had to comment as I've been a witch for the last 15 years (I'm not wiccan) and pagan for 20
Runt
Well-Known Member
Argh, can't figure out how to do the quoting thing... so quotation marks will just have to do.
You said: "Yes, not all pagans are witches... BUT... Wicca is a path in its own right and most pracitioners of wicca are witches.. but not all witches are wiccan. "
Words words words! I stand corrected. In a moment I will edit the "definition" based on some of what you have told me. I only have a couple sources for the history of paganism/Wicca/witchcraft, and they are not very reliable
"While the majority of people who have no information on wicca assume that witches and satanists are the same thing... true satanists wouldn't dream of calling themselves wiccan in any way, shape or form as to them Wicca is far too restricting for their way of life. They would term themselves witches and warlocks however - as they use the black arts."
It depends on what kind of satanists you are speaking of. Remember that I said "encouraged by Satanists calling themselves Wiccan" and not "all Satanists think they are Wiccan". True satanists will not call themselves Wiccan; however, there are very few "true" satanists out there and there are MANY teenagers going for the "rebellion" factor and ignoring the spiritual factor of satanism. They do everything in their power to look Satanist, act Satanist, and make people think they are Satanist, without knowing ANYTHING about true Satanism, and yet, believing like many other people that Satanism is the Christian vision of diabolical witchcraft, and Wicca and that view of satanism are the same thing, they tell everyone that they are Wiccan and that "Wiccans are Satanist". That is why when a lot of non-pagans think of Wiccans, the first thing they see in their mind is a gothic teenager with an upside-down pentagram around their neck. And a lot of true Wiccans get confused about what Wicca is as well, and create an exterior image for themselves that actually encourages this view. It is one reason why I do not call myself Wiccan... there are too many negative connotations, and too many Wiccans who know nothing about their own religion. I am glad that you are not one of that latter group.
"The witches bible will only give you the perspective of coven-based Wiccan teaching, a solitary Witch (like myself) would have a totally different perspective"
I cited the Witches Bible because I was paraphrasing some of what it said. The information I paraphrased you did NOT disagree on... I do not really encourage people to get their religion from books at all anyway, but I always try to cite where I got my information. :lol:
I'll add your explaination for why you call yourself a witch to the relevant section.
However, for many Wiccans the name "witch" gives personal satisfaction because for so long it had negative connotations in Christian thought, and now they have the opportunity to take the word back and empower it as something good instead of something "evil". AND we take some pleasure in using what was once a "forbidden name". A few years ago we could not have said "I'm a witch" without running the risk of being alienated, disowned, ostracized, or even subjected to violence. And in the "old days" if you admitted to being a witch, you would likely be killed.
"We have many thing of historical significance".
I believe I was referring to things that Christians believed to be associated with witches with historically really WERE associated with pagans. Like brooms
"Sorry, again..... AC didn't found the Golden Dawn, and it wasn't a coven."
It was not a coven as we today define one, which is why I put the word coven in quotation marks. However, it was a mixture of the Golden Dawn's "group organization" and the idea of practicioners of ancient paganism meeting in groves in small groups that led to the development of the modern, Wiccan "coven". And despite the fact that Crowley did NOT found it (I will fix that too) and it later dissolved, it still stands that the Golden Dawn practiced something much closer to diabolical witchcraft and satanism than they practiced Wicca, and that sometime after that Gardner came along and SAID he had been given permission by Crowley to found his own group, though when Gardner got done creating his own version, it was something much closer to modern Wicca and not diabolical witchcraft that he produced. However, we still have that early connection. A revival of diabolical witchcraft came first (actually, it cannot really be called a revival because diabolical witchcraft really wasn't practiced in the old days of Christianity... it was a literary creation of Christianity used to discount other religions that members of the Golden Dawn decided to bring to life as a "religion".) Naturally, the word "witch" was adopted as well, though I will admit that it does seem to fit our religion rather well, despite NOT originally meaning "nature worshipper" but "devil worshipper".
You said: "Yes, not all pagans are witches... BUT... Wicca is a path in its own right and most pracitioners of wicca are witches.. but not all witches are wiccan. "
Words words words! I stand corrected.
In a moment I will edit the "definition" based on some of what you have told me. I only have a couple sources for the history of paganism/Wicca/witchcraft, and they are not very reliable "While the majority of people who have no information on wicca assume that witches and satanists are the same thing... true satanists wouldn't dream of calling themselves wiccan in any way, shape or form as to them Wicca is far too restricting for their way of life. They would term themselves witches and warlocks however - as they use the black arts."
It depends on what kind of satanists you are speaking of. Remember that I said "encouraged by Satanists calling themselves Wiccan" and not "all Satanists think they are Wiccan". True satanists will not call themselves Wiccan; however, there are very few "true" satanists out there and there are MANY teenagers going for the "rebellion" factor and ignoring the spiritual factor of satanism. They do everything in their power to look Satanist, act Satanist, and make people think they are Satanist, without knowing ANYTHING about true Satanism, and yet, believing like many other people that Satanism is the Christian vision of diabolical witchcraft, and Wicca and that view of satanism are the same thing, they tell everyone that they are Wiccan and that "Wiccans are Satanist". That is why when a lot of non-pagans think of Wiccans, the first thing they see in their mind is a gothic teenager with an upside-down pentagram around their neck. And a lot of true Wiccans get confused about what Wicca is as well, and create an exterior image for themselves that actually encourages this view. It is one reason why I do not call myself Wiccan... there are too many negative connotations, and too many Wiccans who know nothing about their own religion. I am glad that you are not one of that latter group.
"The witches bible will only give you the perspective of coven-based Wiccan teaching, a solitary Witch (like myself) would have a totally different perspective"
I cited the Witches Bible because I was paraphrasing some of what it said. The information I paraphrased you did NOT disagree on... I do not really encourage people to get their religion from books at all anyway, but I always try to cite where I got my information. :lol:
I'll add your explaination for why you call yourself a witch to the relevant section.
However, for many Wiccans the name "witch" gives personal satisfaction because for so long it had negative connotations in Christian thought, and now they have the opportunity to take the word back and empower it as something good instead of something "evil". AND we take some pleasure in using what was once a "forbidden name". A few years ago we could not have said "I'm a witch" without running the risk of being alienated, disowned, ostracized, or even subjected to violence. And in the "old days" if you admitted to being a witch, you would likely be killed.
"We have many thing of historical significance".
I believe I was referring to things that Christians believed to be associated with witches with historically really WERE associated with pagans. Like brooms
"Sorry, again..... AC didn't found the Golden Dawn, and it wasn't a coven."
It was not a coven as we today define one, which is why I put the word coven in quotation marks. However, it was a mixture of the Golden Dawn's "group organization" and the idea of practicioners of ancient paganism meeting in groves in small groups that led to the development of the modern, Wiccan "coven". And despite the fact that Crowley did NOT found it (I will fix that too) and it later dissolved, it still stands that the Golden Dawn practiced something much closer to diabolical witchcraft and satanism than they practiced Wicca, and that sometime after that Gardner came along and SAID he had been given permission by Crowley to found his own group, though when Gardner got done creating his own version, it was something much closer to modern Wicca and not diabolical witchcraft that he produced. However, we still have that early connection. A revival of diabolical witchcraft came first (actually, it cannot really be called a revival because diabolical witchcraft really wasn't practiced in the old days of Christianity... it was a literary creation of Christianity used to discount other religions that members of the Golden Dawn decided to bring to life as a "religion".) Naturally, the word "witch" was adopted as well, though I will admit that it does seem to fit our religion rather well, despite NOT originally meaning "nature worshipper" but "devil worshipper".
Azhria Lilu
Member
copy and paste the text you want to quote, then look at the icons above the post.. 2nd row, third icon (little speech bubble) click it
But important words nonetheless as if someone says they are a witch, it is important not to just assume they are wiccan.. whereas if they say they are wiccan you can safely assume they practice the craft too (unless theyre a fluffy bunny, then theyre just following fashion).
I was speaking of TRUE Satanists.. I believe I said that lol
I went back to reread what youd written but youve edited the post
Im not only not the latter, Im also not wiccan lol
I was simply adding that the viewpoint that this book was written from is coven-based and the perspective would be completely different if you spoke to a solitary
This is something I cant comment on, as I do not know where you reside.. but Ive been calling myself a witch for around 15 years without any abuse of any sort - but I'm in the UK and most people here are pretty laid back about that kinda thing.
In the old days, if you were different in any way unmarried spinster, sick, had warts, even a wooden leg
or you simply didnt fit.. your neighbours would cry witch.. there was also the political ramifications to consider all the belongings of the accused went to the state/accuser so that was an added reason to point someone to the inquisitors. 90% of the people killed during the burning times werent even witches, just people who made the mistake of being different.I wasnt disagreeing with you, simply reiterating the point you made :lol:
Mind if I quote a Thelemic pal of mine, as hes far more qualified to respond to comments about Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley than I am.
The Golden Dawn never met in Groves or "practiced" Ancient Paganism. In fact, Golden Dawn would be considered a mystery school not a Coven and it practitioners were more monotheistic than anything - they used God Names etc etc etc as symbols of the psyche but not necessarily entities of their own accord. Nor were they, by any means, Diabolical. Yes, Goetic Invocations were, at times, involved - however this was to the effect of taking medicine to gain control over ones mental disorders. They did NOT consider themselves witches. They were extremely Scholarly people - some of them Doctors, writers, poets and other respectable people. They studied and translated 90 % of the Grimoires we have today. AC was member of the Golden Dawn but was by no means it's fonder He was however the Founder of the Outer Orders of the A.'.A.'. And OTH of the OTO . And the both of these requires good and honest hard work of a Completely Scholarly Nature.
Forgot to add... witch has never meant "devil worshipper"...
The etymological roots could be several: among the canditates are German weihen ("consecrate") as well as the English word "victim" in its original meaning for someone killed in a religious ritual
Thus, a "witch" would signify nothing else but an ancient type of priestess. The Old English word wicce means wizard, and gives rise to the adjective "wicked". Wizard, again is thought to be related to the modern term "wise". A cautious interpretation gives us a witch being a woman of (presumably occult) knowledge.
Azhria Lilu
Member
nope, not in arizona LOL
Fluffy bunny is the "affectionate" term used in the whole pagan community about those who announce their sudden pagan faiths and proceed to wander around the woods wailing their heads off, talking about the "aura's of trees" and being general pains in the rears because they really don't have a clue what they're talking about :lol:
Colin_Admin
Member
my eyese hurt after reading all of that.
Azhria Lilu
Member
LOL so long as your brain didn't hurt
Runt
Well-Known Member
Woo hoo! I did it!
And I was speaking of WANNABE Satanists... I think we are really agreeing on this but believe we're disagreeing. If that made any sense.
Yeah... I'm going to edit some of my other comments as well. You have a better grasp of Wiccan history than I do. Not being Wiccan myself, I find it hard to define them, but I suspect when this forum really gets up and running most of the people here will probably BE Wiccan, and I want my information to be correct and as unbiased as possible.
Aye, in the editing I made a note on that. I'm thinking of a new topic for Recommended Reading and giving a little information about each book.
Really? I've been dealing with the "you're going to go to hell", "someone should SEND you to hell", and "Jesus loves you and wants you to repent" stuff all my life...
Which to me is so sad! I wonder if there were ANY people who practiced witchcraft back in the burning times... I'm sure there were people who, if they lived today, would have, and I know that people mixed "pagan superstition" into their Christian beliefs (old wives tales, for example), but were there any people who really practiced witchcraft... either "witchcraft" as Christians saw it or the "old ways" (since Wicca had not yet been created)? There had to be some people... but there is no real evidence of them as far as I know...
But didn't Crowley style himself the "To Mega Therion 666" ("The Great Beast 666") and he and Mathers did elaborate "jokes" in which they pretended (or even believed that they really did?) to send demons and vampires after each other. Crowley was known for holding large orgies and openly performing sex magic (not that I'm saying sex magic is wrong) and marking his lovers with the "sign of the beast", and, of course performing spells, making potions, and a variety of other acts that Christians associate with diabolical witchcraft.
I am not saying that it was REALLY disbolical, or that they were wiccan, or even pagan. I'm saying that the Golden Dawn was literally trying to create an image of themselves that coorrelated with the Christian idea of what witches were really like. Yes, there were a lot of educated people in the group; but I think this was a group of educated individuals who were trying to challenge Christian beliefs...and succeeding.
Originally the word witch (or its roots) did not mean "devil worshipper". But the Christians changed the meaning. You have to remember that anyone who did not adhere COMPLETELY to Christian ideals were automatically devil worshippers in Christian eyes, and the Christians called these devil worshippers "Witches". NOW the word does not mean devil worshipper (though some Christians still believe it does, and frankly, IF their religion really IS right and ours really IS wrong, then we ARE devil worshippers, though we don't know it) and in pre-Christian/early Christian times it did not mean "devil worshipper" but something closer to "wise woman", but there was a time it did. And even now some groups of people associate the word "witch" with "devil worshipper", even though WE claim that witches are NOT devil worshippers (unless they are Satanist... then, incidentally, they are
)Azhria Lilu
Member
I have a few sites with the perfect comeback for things like that, if you'd like the link
You're probably right
Good idea.. will help you out a little, if you'd like.
In actual fact, Crowley's mother gave him the name The Great Beast - his autobiography explains it all - can't remember where about at the moment.. will come and edit the post with the page when I've found it
I think the biggest problem here is the continuous association with Christianity and their view of paganism as a whole - which appears to be the viewpoint you're looking at it from.
Diabolical Witchcraft, in pagan terms, does not exist. It's a Christian term for all witchcraft - an insult, if you will. To discuss this subject properly, it has to be moved away from the christianised opinion otherwise we will just go around in circles, arguing moot points.
Yes, of course Golden Dawn wanted to challenge Christian beliefs.... all religions that don't match do that. Every religion that doesn't follow the Christian faith is a challenge to Christianity. But the Golden Dawn was not thinking about Witches and setting themselves up as the Christian version of them, they were a group of scholars who performed Ritual/Higher Ceremonial Magick - the majority of them looked down on witchcraft as a lower form of magick.. parlour tricks, if you will. So, for them to be compared with witches would be an insult to them.
Gnosti Seauton
New Member
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
I've been following this topic and have decided to jump in defense of some false Allegations set against my forefathers.
Azh I have to actually disagree here the GD as a whole wasn't out to challenge anything but to discover more about those things which were already known.
However I do agree with your next statement that any religion thats not Christianity does that naturally.
As For Crowley it's no secret that Crowley's brain was completely poisoned by his extreme Christain upbringing and yes it was his Mother that caused it along with everyone else in the plymouth brethern with the exception of his father, however he died when crowley was a boy. Thelema is not a Satanic ideology cult of any sort however there are "satanist" that claim to be Thelemites but there are also "Satanists" that claim to be Christian as well. Besides the entire Idea of Satan in a Thelemites eyes is entirely different from that of a Christians and entirely different than that of a satanists. One could even say that I myself am a "Satan Worshiper" however as Azh will Attest that means something entirely different to what you think.
My advice for what it's worth Runt, is read Crowley's Works and the Works of the GD Memebers (ie Israel Regardie etc etc) and decide for your self what it means to you instead of listening to the Christian and Anti - Thelemite Communtiy for your source.
I see great potential in you as you have accepted facts presented to you and realised certain mistakes (or at least your trying to save face) either way you have made an effort to learn in some way. Read the Classics read every book you can get your hand on and while reading put aside personal prejudices (and yes it is very hard to do ) and make your Decision (There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. Do that and no other shall say nay.)
I won't go into the whole Qabalah here as I'm tired and don't have the patients at this moment to explain in full detail TO META THERION 666 in qabalistic light. But if you would like to Discuss it my AIM is TOMETASCAPEGOAT or MSN: [email protected]***.org
And I will be happy to discuss any questions you have.
P.S. whats so wrong about being against Chritianity anways to be agianst Christians is to be for freedom (or at least most the time) I don't like the Christain way of thinking but I think the bible is a Great source of knowledge.
Love is the law, love under will.
I've been following this topic and have decided to jump in defense of some false Allegations set against my forefathers.
Azh I have to actually disagree here the GD as a whole wasn't out to challenge anything but to discover more about those things which were already known.
However I do agree with your next statement that any religion thats not Christianity does that naturally.
As For Crowley it's no secret that Crowley's brain was completely poisoned by his extreme Christain upbringing and yes it was his Mother that caused it along with everyone else in the plymouth brethern with the exception of his father, however he died when crowley was a boy. Thelema is not a Satanic ideology cult of any sort however there are "satanist" that claim to be Thelemites but there are also "Satanists" that claim to be Christian as well. Besides the entire Idea of Satan in a Thelemites eyes is entirely different from that of a Christians and entirely different than that of a satanists. One could even say that I myself am a "Satan Worshiper" however as Azh will Attest that means something entirely different to what you think.
My advice for what it's worth Runt, is read Crowley's Works and the Works of the GD Memebers (ie Israel Regardie etc etc) and decide for your self what it means to you instead of listening to the Christian and Anti - Thelemite Communtiy for your source.
I see great potential in you as you have accepted facts presented to you and realised certain mistakes (or at least your trying to save face) either way you have made an effort to learn in some way. Read the Classics read every book you can get your hand on and while reading put aside personal prejudices (and yes it is very hard to do ) and make your Decision (There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. Do that and no other shall say nay.)
I won't go into the whole Qabalah here as I'm tired and don't have the patients at this moment to explain in full detail TO META THERION 666 in qabalistic light. But if you would like to Discuss it my AIM is TOMETASCAPEGOAT or MSN: [email protected]***.org
And I will be happy to discuss any questions you have.
P.S. whats so wrong about being against Chritianity anways to be agianst Christians is to be for freedom (or at least most the time) I don't like the Christain way of thinking but I think the bible is a Great source of knowledge.
Love is the law, love under will.
Azhria Lilu
Member
Hey sweetie.. glad you decided to join in (no smoochie emote, so you'll just have to imagine one )
I probably should have put a comma at the end of that sentence... the point I was making was that GD was as guilty as every other religion for challenging christianity - be it intentional or not... bad wording on my part
)I probably should have put a comma at the end of that sentence... the point I was making was that GD was as guilty as every other religion for challenging christianity - be it intentional or not... bad wording on my part
Runt
Well-Known Member
Hell yeah! *cough*no pun intended*cough*
Yeah, I'd like. Whenever you see something inaccurate, feel free to point it out. I'll change my comment if I agree with you.
I believe Crowley consciously decided to imitate Christian views of paganism and witchcraft, partially for the shock effect, partially to try to demonstrate how the ideas of the Christians could be turned from something considered "evil" into another way to reach the divine. The particular demons he called on/pretended to call on/referred to are something of Christian creation. I think if he was being original, the religion he was practicing would NOT bear SO MANY resemblances to Christianity's image of "The Witch".
I'm just saying that modern witchcraft may have developed from a combination of the adoption of Christian views of witches and the revival of the "Old Religion", and then slowly but surely had tried to eradicate ALL Christian views (despite fluffy bunnies running around claiming to "sacrifice cats to Satan" and be able to levitate.)
However, I think we are going around in circles on this topic. You seem to respect Crowley and believe the Golden Dawn was completely original. I don't respect Crowley and I think that the Golden Dawn, while undoubtedly full of intellegent individuals, was just looking for attention and trying to create their own version of Satanism. (And I don't just say that they were a kind of Satanist group for no reason. While not actually worshipping Satan, they seem to pretty much adhere to the Nine Satanic Statements:
1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires.
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all. 7. Gratification of all ones desires.
8. The best friend that the Christian Church has had as he has kept it in business for centuries.
And they seem to fit into the mold that Satanists drew for themselves:
1. They do not worship a living deity.
2. Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess.
3. They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life.
Azhria Lilu
Member
Respect him? In a peculiar way, yes LOL He was a sick bunny in all sorts of ways and I'm no follower of his teachings but I have a healthy respect for his intelligence (and regardless of some of the sick twisted things he did, he was extremely intelligent) ... Just because I don't follow his path or agree with a lot of what he did, doesn't mean I can't respect him I respect wild lions too .. wouldn't sit down to a meal with one.. but.. I'm sure you get where I'm going
As for Golden Dawn I'm totally unbiased about them and any other religion on the planet .. live and let live is my motto again, I'm not a follower of GD, OTO, Thelema, or any other combination thereof I don't follow any path in particular, altho I have leanings towards the egyptian magick paths and work mostly with the egyptian pantheon.
What I'm doing is taking the opposite stance to show you the different views that can be seen about the same subject, is all.. I have a tendency to do that... ask Gnosti, he'll tell you how infuriating I can be
I respect wild lions too .. wouldn't sit down to a meal with one.. but.. I'm sure you get where I'm going As for Golden Dawn I'm totally unbiased about them and any other religion on the planet .. live and let live is my motto
again, I'm not a follower of GD, OTO, Thelema, or any other combination thereof I don't follow any path in particular, altho I have leanings towards the egyptian magick paths and work mostly with the egyptian pantheon.What I'm doing is taking the opposite stance to show you the different views that can be seen about the same subject, is all.. I have a tendency to do that... ask Gnosti, he'll tell you how infuriating I can be
Runt
Well-Known Member
Agh... lmao... this gets really confusing when there are enough posts to fit in multiple pages.
Azhria Lilu: To I found Gnosti Seauton's comment but couldn't find my response to YOU and I was like... "Wait, do I have to REWRITE it?!?"
To Gnosti: I'm sorry... I wasn't ignoring you Are you the one who gave Azhria the quote earlier? If so, thanks, it helped clarify some stuff for me.
GNOSTI said:
I'm not trying to be contrary or biased or anything. I just don't know anything. I think I may be TOO agnostic... anyway, I'm just wondering... I read (in the History of Witchcraft, I think) that Golden Dawn called on demons created by Christianity... and they seem to adhere to some Satanic beliefs. However, I can't be SURE (my source might not be reliable, I might be misinterpreting--I don't know much about Christianity, Satanism, OR Wicca... though I'm trying to learn...) If they really did call on demons (complete with their Christian names), were they just playing around to **** people off, or did they really believe what they were calling Christian demons? And if the latter... were they just borrowing the name, or did they really believe in the Christian concept of a demon (I know other cultures believe in demons as well, but I THINK GD was using Christian names...)
I understand that even if they WERE calling on demons and using the Christian names, it does not mean they were Satanist or anything. If we can work with ancient gods and goddess, like for example, I too call on Egyptian gods without being Egyptian myself, then they can certainly do the same. Symbols, right? You could pray to a light bulb and get meaning out of it if you associated the light bulb with something spiritual (inspiration?)
I will... if I can find it in my library. We have Golden Dawn, and some other materials, but they seem to shy away from Crowley, Satanism, and everything but the most commercial of Wiccan books.
I try not to be "against" anyone. I respect everyone to a certain degree (though some less so than others). I figure if people are responsible, their religion is perfectly acceptable. It is when people use religion to hurt others (mentally, physically, emotionally) that they are not-so-respectable. It is usually individuals that lose my respect, not religions.
Azhria Lilu: To I found Gnosti Seauton's comment but couldn't find my response to YOU and I was like... "Wait, do I have to REWRITE it?!?"
To Gnosti: I'm sorry... I wasn't ignoring you
Are you the one who gave Azhria the quote earlier? If so, thanks, it helped clarify some stuff for me. GNOSTI said:
I'm not trying to be contrary or biased or anything. I just don't know anything. I think I may be TOO agnostic... anyway, I'm just wondering... I read (in the History of Witchcraft, I think) that Golden Dawn called on demons created by Christianity... and they seem to adhere to some Satanic beliefs. However, I can't be SURE (my source might not be reliable, I might be misinterpreting--I don't know much about Christianity, Satanism, OR Wicca... though I'm trying to learn...) If they really did call on demons (complete with their Christian names), were they just playing around to **** people off, or did they really believe what they were calling Christian demons? And if the latter... were they just borrowing the name, or did they really believe in the Christian concept of a demon (I know other cultures believe in demons as well, but I THINK GD was using Christian names...)
I understand that even if they WERE calling on demons and using the Christian names, it does not mean they were Satanist or anything. If we can work with ancient gods and goddess, like for example, I too call on Egyptian gods without being Egyptian myself, then they can certainly do the same. Symbols, right? You could pray to a light bulb and get meaning out of it if you associated the light bulb with something spiritual (inspiration?
)I will... if I can find it in my library. We have Golden Dawn, and some other materials, but they seem to shy away from Crowley, Satanism, and everything but the most commercial of Wiccan books.
I try not to be "against" anyone. I respect everyone to a certain degree (though some less so than others). I figure if people are responsible, their religion is perfectly acceptable. It is when people use religion to hurt others (mentally, physically, emotionally) that they are not-so-respectable. It is usually individuals that lose my respect, not religions.
Azhria Lilu
Member
A good attitude to take
Gnosti Seauton
New Member
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
I would agree with you and it was simply bad wording on my part I am not against Christianinty or Christians as a whole. I am against anyone who would in any way infrenge on the Will of others. A good case in point of this dis-ease is the entire going on's of the FCC here in America and why all because some woman Showed her breast (supposedly by accident) on T.V. now people are being told what they can and cannot hear or see on Radio and T.V. These people are being in some way lead by the dogmas of a "Christian"and society and it's extreme advocates. I use the quotes to signfy what I believe to be false Christianity, the Christianity of cowards and control freaks. I see Christianity as a potentially potent and beautiful form of worship if it hadn't been mucked up in exoteric dogma.
What did he do that was so sick. I mean I agree that some of what he did may have been a bit distasteful but not sick or at least not sick by today's standards. You must always keep in mind that Crowley lived quite some time ago and was measured by the standards of his day. You can now go to any pub on a friday night and witness many of the same actions Crowley practised taking place in public.
What was Taboo yesterday is common practise today. If one were to judge Crowley by todays standards he would appear to be a Miscreant (sure thats spelled wrong) but not Diabolical. Crowley never sacrificed human life. Crowley never Canabalised anyone. Crowley never raped or mudered (actually there was that one inncedent where he was being robbed but it was either kill or be killed)
He did use blood in some rituals, he was an avid drug user, and he did have a distaste for female hood but with a mother like his who could rightly blame him. He did preform sex magick and there is absolutley nothing wrong with that at all in fact it's much better to have sex for ritual use than just slap happy getting laid as happens everynight all over teh world.
He was also a wonderful poet, an artist of fantastic skill, a lover of freedom and of humanity as is appearant from any of his writtings, and he was a prankster and loner. But above all he was Magician of great magnitude and even the most avid Crowley-hater can't deny him that.
Crowley had nothing to do with Satanism at all neither did the GD, OTO, A.'.A.'. . I have read the History of Witchcraft and 80% is Bull**** 5% hogwash and 5% is historically proven fact the rest is pure hear se. GD members were not wiccans They were "Scientific illumanatists."
The GD did not use "Christian" demons. In fact the demons that are used are much much older than the christian movement hell their older than the Christ it self. if I had my server up I would link to my Lon Milo Duequette interview it's very enlightning but abit long but is very well worth the time spent listening. As it explains what is meant when a Thelemite or GD boy mentions one. Ahh here it is Lon Milo Interview
But the fact is is that there was nothing diabolical about any group your talking about.
In fact the only Devil in Thelema is the Demon of Division and Dispersion which is named Chorozon. It is the Creator and Sustainer of illusion. That is of Duality. Also here is a link to Crowley e-library it requires no library card and you can go anytime. Libri of Crowley
Crowley never tried to "go against Christianity" Anton Levay was the one who did that. Not Crowley. It's pretty much impossible to explain anything in these cases as it requires a subjective intimacy with the practices to know just why things shouldd be that way and why some rituals were preformed.
Like I said before the best advice I can give (and I even gave teh resources too) is to read and decide for yourself if you still feel the way you do now then fine but at least you've searched out more than one source and from both prespectives and went straight to the source of the hooplah. At the very least you may learn something new.
Love is the law, love under will.
I would agree with you and it was simply bad wording on my part I am not against Christianinty or Christians as a whole. I am against anyone who would in any way infrenge on the Will of others. A good case in point of this dis-ease is the entire going on's of the FCC here in America and why all because some woman Showed her breast (supposedly by accident) on T.V. now people are being told what they can and cannot hear or see on Radio and T.V. These people are being in some way lead by the dogmas of a "Christian"and society and it's extreme advocates. I use the quotes to signfy what I believe to be false Christianity, the Christianity of cowards and control freaks. I see Christianity as a potentially potent and beautiful form of worship if it hadn't been mucked up in exoteric dogma.
What did he do that was so sick. I mean I agree that some of what he did may have been a bit distasteful but not sick or at least not sick by today's standards. You must always keep in mind that Crowley lived quite some time ago and was measured by the standards of his day. You can now go to any pub on a friday night and witness many of the same actions Crowley practised taking place in public.
What was Taboo yesterday is common practise today. If one were to judge Crowley by todays standards he would appear to be a Miscreant (sure thats spelled wrong) but not Diabolical. Crowley never sacrificed human life. Crowley never Canabalised anyone. Crowley never raped or mudered (actually there was that one inncedent where he was being robbed but it was either kill or be killed)
He did use blood in some rituals, he was an avid drug user, and he did have a distaste for female hood but with a mother like his who could rightly blame him. He did preform sex magick and there is absolutley nothing wrong with that at all in fact it's much better to have sex for ritual use than just slap happy getting laid as happens everynight all over teh world.
He was also a wonderful poet, an artist of fantastic skill, a lover of freedom and of humanity as is appearant from any of his writtings, and he was a prankster and loner. But above all he was Magician of great magnitude and even the most avid Crowley-hater can't deny him that.
Crowley had nothing to do with Satanism at all neither did the GD, OTO, A.'.A.'. . I have read the History of Witchcraft and 80% is Bull**** 5% hogwash and 5% is historically proven fact the rest is pure hear se. GD members were not wiccans They were "Scientific illumanatists."
The GD did not use "Christian" demons. In fact the demons that are used are much much older than the christian movement hell their older than the Christ it self. if I had my server up I would link to my Lon Milo Duequette interview it's very enlightning but abit long but is very well worth the time spent listening. As it explains what is meant when a Thelemite or GD boy mentions one. Ahh here it is Lon Milo Interview
But the fact is is that there was nothing diabolical about any group your talking about.
In fact the only Devil in Thelema is the Demon of Division and Dispersion which is named Chorozon. It is the Creator and Sustainer of illusion. That is of Duality. Also here is a link to Crowley e-library it requires no library card and you can go anytime. Libri of Crowley
Crowley never tried to "go against Christianity" Anton Levay was the one who did that. Not Crowley. It's pretty much impossible to explain anything in these cases as it requires a subjective intimacy with the practices to know just why things shouldd be that way and why some rituals were preformed.
Like I said before the best advice I can give (and I even gave teh resources too) is to read and decide for yourself if you still feel the way you do now then fine but at least you've searched out more than one source and from both prespectives and went straight to the source of the hooplah. At the very least you may learn something new.
Love is the law, love under will.