Decline of Christianity in Middle East

[Phil25]

I bet not many know what Hijaz is

Isnt Hijaz the area, around Mecca and Medina.


Churches are bombed. Christians are killed. Are all Muslims, Extremist and hate Christians? Obviously No. But do any of the moderate Muslims do anything to help their Christian brothers and sisters? Hardly Anything. And whatever they do doesnt improve the conditions of Christians.
Christians are Forced to leave M.E. They have been there for almost 2000 yrs. And then We have got Government in West, who are concerned for the Human Rights of Palestinians, but hardly care for the Human Rights of Iraqi, Syrian, Coptic and Turkish Christians.
I am frustrated with this apathy for M.E Christians. I am a Syrian Orthodox Christian and I hear, my fellow Syrian Christians being killed, kidnapped, raped etc. And Yeah, All of this is done by Muslims in name of Allah.

Just my opinion. I hope I gave it with the respect and you guys don't mind me being honest with you

I respect your opinions and I know you are a Moderate Muslim and dont agree with the ideologies of Jihadists.

All of this is my Humble Opinion

 

[Phil25]

Well, but the Muslims indirectly spread Christ's teachings.

I dont get that one.

 

[melk]

If you rephrase your statement with "some Muslims in the Middle East" instead of "the refreshment of Islam faith" then I would agree with you. Even here in Saudi Arabia, the strictest Muslim country, we welcome Christian expats/residents with open arms. I have Christian friends at work.

I apologise, Smart Guy. I know there are moderate muslims, like yourself, who respect other people's faith and thought. However, even those moderates, who I think are the majority, sometimes seem to acomplice radicalism, by not condemning it unequivocally.
I think Islam talks about the need of fighting the unfaithful and opression. If not interpreted with good feelings , these sayings surely can lead to destrucitive acts. It is not a muslim exclusive problem. Other religions also passed (and some are still passing) through the need of giving a less literal intepretation to its scriptures. Hope the muslims also will.

 

[Estro Felino]

I dont get that one.

well...in the Qur'an there is a bit of Christianity, given that the five pillars if Islam are monotheism, prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage

 

[Drolefille]

No, it's not. The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression, gone terribly wrong. This is what the Pope Innocent III said about the soldiers that did this:

"These "soldiers of Christ" who should have turned their swords against the infidel have steeped them in Christian blood, sparing neither religion, nor age, nor sex . . . They stripped the altars of silver, violated the sanctuaries, robbed icons and crosses and relics . . . The Latins have given example only of perversity and works of darkness. No wonder the Greeks call them dogs!"

{cited in Carroll, ibid., p. 158; from Mann, Popes of the Middle Ages, vol. 12, pp. 266-267}

But it most certainly started as a defensive response.

Sorry, I have to disagree. I guess you could say you CAN argue it, but it is far from certainty. The very 1st crusade (People's and Prince's) could have been intended as a defense but the acts of it included the Rhineland massacres, and targeted Jerusalem - which wasn't what was under attack as it hadn't been Christian for 400 years - and didn't even give THAT to the Byzantines... I have a hard time seeing it as actually defensive. And historians are far from convinced either.

Not really trying to sideline this into a debate, I just cannot see group A going to attack group B because group C is threatened as "self-defense" as Frank put it. There are times that it might be right or just, (I don't think the crusades were particularly) but neither is it self defense.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Isnt Hijaz the area, around Mecca and Medina.

Churches are bombed. Christians are killed. Are all Muslims, Extremist and hate Christians? Obviously No. But do any of the moderate Muslims do anything to help their Christian brothers and sisters? Hardly Anything. And whatever they do doesnt improve the conditions of Christians.
Christians are Forced to leave M.E. They have been there for almost 2000 yrs. And then We have got Government in West, who are concerned for the Human Rights of Palestinians, but hardly care for the Human Rights of Iraqi, Syrian, Coptic and Turkish Christians.
I am frustrated with this apathy for M.E Christians. I am a Syrian Orthodox Christian and I hear, my fellow Syrian Christians being killed, kidnapped, raped etc. And Yeah, All of this is done by Muslims in name of Allah.

I respect your opinions and I know you are a Moderate Muslim and dont agree with the ideologies of Jihadists.

All of this is my Humble Opinion

Sorry, I didn't know it was that tough

The problem with the moderate Muslims is the power and the language. They don't have enough of them to make a stand, and Arabs in general these days are weak and don't stand with each other for a single thought. I managed to cover the language part, and here I am trying to clarify some of the so many misunderstood concepts of Islam. I seriously lack power, specially that I'm Hijazi, and we are discriminated against here.

You are Syrian, have you faced any of those problems personally, or do you just hear about them? I'm not saying that they don't happen, but are they the norm for Muslims to do in general? I hear only about the sick Islamic sectarian propaganda in Syria. We do hear lots of things, but I'm not sure if we can take them for granted as absolute general facts.

As for the Western governments' concern for Palestinians, I'm confused. All I know is that the West sent the Zionists to Palestine after arming them up and still funding them until now with the taxes from the hard earned money of the Western bystanders. Then only meetings take place while wars keep burning in Palestine.

I apologise, Smart Guy. I know there are moderate muslims, like yourself, who respect other people's faith and thought. However, even those moderates, who I think are the majority, sometimes seem to acomplice radicalism, by not condemning it unequivocally.
I think Islam talks about the need of fighting the unfaithful and opression. If not interpreted with good feelings , these sayings surely can lead to destrucitive acts. It is not a muslim exclusive problem. Other religions also passed (and some are still passing) through the need of giving a less literal intepretation to its scriptures. Hope the muslims also will.

There is nothing to apologize for. In the end, we only share out thoughts in this website

The problem with the moderate ones is the power and the language. They don't have enough of them to make a stand, and Arabs in general these days are weak and don't stand with each other for a single thought. I managed to cover the language part, and here I am making friends of all races and beliefs, but that alone I fear is not enough. I seriously lack power, specially that I'm Hijazi, and we are discriminated against here.

Islam is a complicated religion that talks about all ways of life that even strong Muslims could take the wrong way.

well...in the Qur'an there is a bit of Christianity, given that the five pillars if Islam are monotheism, prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage

It also shares some direct teachings like God helps those who help themselves and the disapproval of immorality and profanity

 

[Quiddity]

Sorry, I have to disagree. I guess you could say you CAN argue it, but it is far from certainty. The very 1st crusade (People's and Prince's) could have been intended as a defense but the acts of it included the Rhineland massacres, and targeted Jerusalem - which wasn't what was under attack as it hadn't been Christian for 400 years - and didn't even give THAT to the Byzantines... I have a hard time seeing it as actually defensive. And historians are far from convinced either.

Not really trying to sideline this into a debate, I just cannot see group A going to attack group B because group C is threatened as "self-defense" as Frank put it. There are times that it might be right or just, (I don't think the crusades were particularly) but neither is it self defense.

The restoration of Jerusalem was directly tied to indulgences, honor, and was a key move in lifting the spirits back home and getting others to join the cause. Anyways, there are letters from Popes/Bishops that speak of this as well.

 

[melk]

I hear only about the sick Islamic sectarian propaganda in Syria. We do hear lots of things, but can we subjectively take them for granted?

Here in the west, Syrian government is treated as tyranic and, until recently, there was much sympathy for the rebels. However, this simpathy is changing, not for an organized media agenda, but because of isolated reports and videos, liberated mainly in the internet, showing the cruelty of these rebels.

As for the Western governments' concern for Palestinians, I'm confused. All I know is that the West sent the Zionists to Palestine after arming them up and still funding them until now with the taxes from the hard earned money of the Western bystanders. Then only meetings take place while wars keep burning in Palestine.

Like Phill, I also have arab blood in my veins. This makes me very sensitive to what happens in the ME. One thing: whatever originated the jewish state, it´s not for us to be ruminating. The fact is that Israel exist and the palestinian leaders must seek a solution that recognizes this fact. Second: our fight against opression must be a lucid one, not simply viewing the palestines as victims and the israelites as opressors. And third: even if opressed, that doesnt justify terrorist actions, as if all means could be used to reach an end. Israelites use to say that palestinian hate them more than love their ones. We must show that this is not true.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It just goes to show that Christianity is just a dying trend anyways that is succumbing to either modernity (secularism) or other religions.

Excuse you. Christianity is not a "trend" in the Middle East. It was there for centuries before Islam ever existed.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It also shares some direct teachings like God helps those who help themselves

That's not a Christian teaching.

 

[Drolefille]

The restoration of Jerusalem was directly tied to indulgences, honor, and was a key move in lifting the spirits back home and getting others to join the cause. Anyways, there are letters from Popes/Bishops that speak of this as well.

Sure but it wasn't "self defense." That's my point. (And you're talking to the wrong person about the concept of honor that involves killing people.)

 

[gzusfrk]

The Word is bouncing off their hearts like a bb hitting plate steel.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sure but it wasn't "self defense." That's my point. (And you're talking to the wrong person about the concept of honor that involves killing people.)

This can be argued about 'till the cows come home. The official reason for the first Crusade was to defend the Christians who were victims of Muslim persecution in the Holy Land. Regardless, that is a complex subject and to really get into it would derail this thread. We're talking about the here and now, not stuff that happened centuries ago.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I still believe the problem is the Middle Easterners themselves and their nature, not a specific cultural trend/belief by it self. They refuse to stand with each other unifying one community, especially Arabs.

Here in the west, Syrian government is treated as tyranic and, until recently, there was much sympathy for the rebels. However, this simpathy is changing, not for an organized media agenda, but because of isolated reports and videos, liberated mainly in the internet, showing the cruelty of these rebels.

Like Phill, I also have arab blood in my veins. This makes me very sensitive to what happens in the ME. One thing: whatever originated the jewish state, it´s not for us to be ruminating. The fact is that Israel exist and the palestinian leaders must seek a solution that recognizes this fact. Second: our fight against opression must be a lucid one, not simply viewing the palestines as victims and the israelites as opressors. And third: even if opressed, that doesnt justify terrorist actions, as if all means could be used to reach an end. Israelites use to say that palestinian hate them more than love their ones. We must show that this is not true.

Noted. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me

That's not a Christian teaching.

A very important remark that I have to keep in mind. Thanks for the heads up man

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A very important remark that I have to keep in mind. Thanks for the heads up man

No problem.

For more information about that phrase: God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[melk]

It also shares some direct teachings like God helps those who help themselves and the disapproval of immorality and profanity

I believe it's a true saying. Sometimes, you can only count on yourself, and even for seeking God, you must have the incitiative.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe it's a true saying. Sometimes, you can only count on yourself, and even for seeking God, you must have the initiative.

It also means that it is wrong to just stay put, to sleep, to slack around, etc. waiting for things to come for us. Not all rich people, for example, were born with gold spoons in their mouths. Many of them worked hard to get it

Note: I corrected the "initiative" typo for you

 

[Quiddity]

Sure but it wasn't "self defense." That's my point. (And you're talking to the wrong person about the concept of honor that involves killing people.)

Some people can't help themselves when they already have a preconceived notion of a group. It just feels wrong to interpret things any other way but in a bad light.

You most certainly are the wrong person for this.