Decline of Christianity and Religion

[Fool]

You are going to get a lot of letters about that from Kentucky (when they learn to write). But the prayers against you are probably pouring in. Incantations, hexes, voodoo dolls, powders, toads, and a variety of other backwoods remedies are headed your way.

most all of my family is republican with the exception of me. i'm an independent moderate

 

[Fallen Prophet]

kentucky has one of the top ten highest illiteracy rates in the US, one of the top ten poorest in the US, in the top ten religious, and the number one for neglect and abuse of children.

Kentucky ranks just below average in terms of literacy at #29 - not in the top ten.

The ten States that rank the highest in terms of illiteracy are - in ascending order -

California, New York, Florida, Texas, New Jersey, Georgia, New Mexico, Nevada, Mississippi and Louisiana.

Six out of the ten States with the lowest literacy rates are Bue States - so it seems pretty evenly split and would therefore imply that literacy rates are not determined strictly on Party lines.

U.S. Literacy Rates by State (worldpopulationreview.com)

Kentucky is considered the 6th poorest State.

Most of the poorest States are Red States - makes you wonder what whole "white privilege" thing is all about - doesn't it?

Poorest States In America For 2021 (roadsnacks.net)

Kentucky is 10th highest concentration of people who claim to be religious in their population. The top ten are all Red States - save Georgia.

The 25 Most Christian States In America - WorldAtlas

I believe Kentucky still is number one for neglect and abuse of children - they blame drugs and poverty for it.

Kentucky child abuse: Still worst state in US for child abuse, neglect (courier-journal.com)

it is also predominantly GOP. so the old adage keep them dumb and poor, seems to be working for the GOP

Six of the top ten States with lowest literacy rates are Blue - so if you believe that illiteracy is a metric for intelligence - then evidence would suggest that it's the Leftists who are the dummies.

And I think a more appropriate adage would be, "Keep them ignorant and afraid."

The Leftists love keeping their constituents in the dark and terrified.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

WEll. I appreciate you taking that approach. But the spike happened in the early 20th century. In the 50's it kept going, spiked heavily. 70s it declined. So it was not a spike in the 70s, it was a decline in the 70's.

Yup, fair point. The table doesn't really show where the spike occurred (or even peaked). It just shows that 1970 is a higher watermark than other data points. If 1965 was the highest percentage of atheists...or 1975 for that matter...this table wouldn't definitively show it.

The point is that someone claiming education increased atheism is baseless. It is pure "we are superior" attitude that comes with no stats or "even correlation", and as a statistics person you understand the difference between correlation and causation. This is not even correlating. Thats the point. So for someone to claim causation, it just shows a bias.

Any such statement (ie. That education increases atheism) is hard to support via such simple stats, and you won't hear me make it.
One could as easily say 'permissive sexual morality leads to atheism'. Something I've heard some theists say. It happens. People have biases of course.

Hope you understand.

I believe I do. Cheers mate.

 

[firedragon]

Yup, fair point. The table doesn't really show where the spike occurred (or even peaked). It just shows that 1970 is a higher watermark than other data points. If 1965 was the highest percentage of atheists...or 1975 for that matter...this table wouldn't definitively show it.

I can actually get you the breakdown. Let me see.

Any such statement (ie. That education increases atheism) is hard to support via such simple stats, and you won't hear me make it.
One could as easily say 'permissive sexual morality leads to atheism'. Something I've heard some theists say. It happens. People have biases of course.

Hmm. Sexual morality. I really cannot make any kind of comments on that. Atheists also have very similar "morality" if that is the word to be used as theists. And would change through geographical areas. So I dont know how to really assess that.

Lets see if any due studies come up, not just speculations and biases.

Cheers.

 

[Altfish]

First of all we need to define how we determine what wrong means. And for me, what you mean by casual.

I suppose 'wrong' means what you would call sin.
Casual means in this context something like 'with no committment'

 

[Altfish]

I think we have to go beyond what is merely consensual. For instance if a dog mounts a woman and she lets it isn't that consensual with both parties? If it is is it wrong?

Good grief, why bring animals into the discussion; please stick to humans.

 

[Clara Tea]

why do you suppose christianity is on the decline? evidently religion is on the decline altogether.


a pew research poll shows christianity down 12% from a decade ago.


Christians continue to make up a majority of the U.S. populace, but their share of the adult population is 12 points lower in 2021 than it was in 2011. In addition, the share of U.S. adults who say they pray on a daily basis has been trending downward, as has the share who say religion is “very important” in their lives.

Christians are disillusioned.

They had banded together into the Religious Right, they had elected several US presidents (Reagan, and the Bush's), and they, in turn, appointed many judges....packing the courts, and they fought for various causes

1. the mistaken notion that atheists were trying to take away their religion because non-Christians wanted freedom of Religion (guaranteed by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution), and wanted "separation of church and state" while Christians wanted to hold open prayer meetings in public schools, force all students to attend, teach out of their bible about their God, and Jews and others would stand out like sore thumbs, ashamed of their own beliefs.

2. end abortion

3. support the 2nd Amendment (gun rights), though all of the other amendments were trashed if they dealt with freedoms (removed redress of grievances (right to sue), must instead arbitrate, with HMO's as their own judges), limited freedom of assembly (G8 protestors were allowed to protest far from TV cameras after being dumped on an island off of the coast of North Carolina), limited free speech and press (websites obey the cancel culture, they are not allowed to voice opinions).

Once elected, their politicians didn't pursue their pre-election objectives (still have abortion, don't have prayer in schools, yet, many of our rights have been taken from us. We're stuck with far right Christian judges for life.

Iranians were disillusioned by their religious zealot, the Ayatollah Khomeni. At first, they thought that they were returning to the old moral laws, and they would be a shining example of fairness to the world. Iranian students in America were ecstatic that Khomeni was being elected (and I talked to several of them). Khomeni's first act was to put to death all Iranians educated in America, and his predecessor (Shaw of Iran, Reza Pelavi), had educated many Iranians in America in order to strengthen his country.

Khomeni had warped his religion of peace in the same way that the Religious Right presidents warped Christianity....declaring wars without proof of terrorism (Iraq and Afghanistan), and bearing false witness against Niger with the hope that they could steal their country and their yellow cake Uranium resources. Torture camps are certainly against God's orders. God: "thou shalt not kill"....Jesus: "turn the other cheek."

The bible (God's word) didn't let them down, but the preachers, like Reverend John Hagee, who said that we have to pray to Jesus to win the war (pray to kill more effectively) just didn't understand what God wanted, despite being educated in fine schools of theology.

Numerous preachers also failed to live up to their position. Christian priests arrested for raping little boys, Reverend Jimmy Swaggart hiring prostitutes, Reverend Robert Schuller taking donations to built the Crystal Cathedral (but owned the $50 million church himself....not church property). Reverend Jim Bakker (and wife Tammy Fay Bakker) took donations to starving Africans to use in their mansion. And on and on (I don't need to list all of them).

The world is a mess, and Christians made it a mess. Pollution, homelessness, debt, wars, torture camps.....all their doing. Just what do Christians do for citizens or America?

It is clear that reverends don't follow God's laws, nor do they correctly interpret them for their congregations. Mixing religion and politics made the worship of mammon outshine the worship of God.

 

[Clara Tea]

Good grief, why bring animals into the discussion; please stick to humans.

RE: dog humping a human......Or at least use breath mints and get a manicure. I once saw a Baptist convention in Las Vegas, when they were walking into a nudie show, and their behavior was very similar.

 

[Clara Tea]

Yup, fair point. The table doesn't really show where the spike occurred (or even peaked). It just shows that 1970 is a higher watermark than other data points. If 1965 was the highest percentage of atheists...or 1975 for that matter...this table wouldn't definitively show it.

Any such statement (ie. That education increases atheism) is hard to support via such simple stats, and you won't hear me make it.
One could as easily say 'permissive sexual morality leads to atheism'. Something I've heard some theists say. It happens. People have biases of course.

I believe I do. Cheers mate.

Permissive sex leads to atheism???? Wouldn't that recruit more atheists?

The vast amount of evidence shows that theists have more permissive sex. Currently, the Catholic Church (aka Vatican) and individual Catholic churches, are being sued for having boy-raping priests. Ditto, Boyscouts of America (a Christian organization) is also being sued for boy-raping scout leaders. Do you see many atheist lawsuits?

 

[Clara Tea]

Depends on (a) the care and astuteness in framing the questions (b) the manner in which the poll is taken and (c) the answers you get.

You'll recall the "three kinds of lies" ─ lies, damned lies, and statistics.

50% of people use statistics correctly, and 75% of people use statistics incorrectly.

 

[Clara Tea]

Those who are more zealous about their religion are loathe to give it up. Those that are less fundamentalist distance themselves from the more extreme groups- although they may still believe the same as they did before-they just don't want the label "Christian." Now we are seeing even the more zealous are giving it up.

You'd think that those without religion would be less zealous about their religion. It can be argued that lack of faith is a religion of its own. But, surely they can't blindly accept all beliefs (Santa, tooth fairy, Fred Flintstone) without proof, otherwise, they'd have to believe in everything. Surely believing in the wrong God is offensive to God.

 

[Clara Tea]

I'd like to jump in here with a question. First of all, I want to be clear that I don't judge same sex marriages.
I just was wondering that if I can Love another man but am not homosexual, how do we classify homosexuality if not by Love for the same gender? Is homosexuality then classified by the desire to have sex with someone of the same gender without consideration of whether or not love is involved? In other words, don't we classify homosexuality by the desire to have sex with the same gender not by Loving the same gender?

There are many kinds of love. Lust is not love. Rape isn't about love or lust, it is about power. A man can love another man as a friend. A male relative could love another male relative (like fathers love sons). Some states have had laws about a man not hugging another man in public. But that makes no sense if a father wants to hug his son.

 

[Clara Tea]

Apologies, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
What is wrong with consensual casual sex?

Casual STDs (like AIDS), and casual kids. Wifes are upset, families break up.

 

[Clara Tea]

First of all we need to define how we determine what wrong means. And for me, what you mean by casual.

Wrong seems to be modified by the size of one's bank account and political/religious power. Reverend Schuller's son (also a reverend) had his pants down in public, penis sticking out, bottle of booze in one arm, scantily clad blonde in the other, and the picture was in the newspaper. Power corrupts. If they focus, instead, on what they could do for others, many more would live, and many more would be more comfortable.

 

[Clara Tea]

Now, now...I never said that.
I don't find these stats informative. Not about the topic in the OP. I do find them interesting/curious but a spike in atheism in 1970 raises way more questions for me than it answers, so without additional context on the method, etc...*shrugs*

I work with stats and numbers a lot. There's a lot more to it than 'stats good' or 'stats bad'.

The way that the question is asked colors the answer. Often black and whites should be shades of gray.

 

[Clara Tea]

Is that your answer? It seems to be a non answer to my question. I never indicated that it was any different. It just seemed to me that you were putting an emphasis on the Love aspect as having something to do with defining "same" sex marriages. It may be assumed that both preferences get married out of Love for each other (hetero and homosexual couples) but Love is not how we define or differentiate homosexuality. Is that correct?

Love is the same (I think) between Gays and Straights. Homosexuality has to do with sex with the same gender.

 

[Clara Tea]

I think you are spot on. American Christianity is an anomaly and is less about following Jesus (actions) and more about worshiping Jesus (beliefs). Beliefs make a group feel superior and separate, and totally feed the ego, so it's hard to give up. We are very ego-driven in the US, the rugged individualists that we are. It makes a mess. Sadly, they spread their views to the third world and are stoking fires of hatred world wide. Fundamentalist religion and third world culture are a recipe for disaster. People are finally being brave enough to question, and since fewer people are raised in religious homes lately, they have no shame about their own views. This is healthy, IMO.

Jesus's beliefs were shaken at the end of his life when he asked God "why hath thou forsaken me?" The notion of a "loving God" seemed odd to Jesus, while he was tortured to death.

Nothing can take away the kind actions of Jesus (curing the sick and not expecting anything in return). Such socialized medicine is alien to the rugged individualists (who pay for their own medical care if they can).

Discussions of religion go back to ancient times. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls were an argument. There have been times when questioning scripture (or trying to differently interpret it) was punishable on pain of death (usually slow death). Those Dark Ages were anti-science.

 

[Clara Tea]

I think one reason is that it is not taught much anymore. And I mean it is not taught even in Christian congregation. Most priests that I know, are more focused on collecting money and pleasing people than speaking about what Bible tells. And, when people don't know, they are easily misled and also have wrong ideas that can lead them away. This does not mean that all would believe, if just taught enough. This means, when people don't hear, it is not probably that they would understand and if they don't understand, they reject it.

And in addition to that there is not much people who teach, there is lot of sources that preach atheism. Nowadays it seems that it is atheists mostly who tell what Christianity is. And obviously, one can not assume to get correct teaching from person who is basically anti Christian.

But, maybe it is also so that modern people are like this:

But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof….
2 Tim. 3:1-5

For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.
2 Tim. 4:3-4

I don't think that the followers are the problem. I think that preachers don't understand or follow God's commandments, despite their fine educations in fine universities. For examle....God said "thou shalt not kill" but Reverend John Hagee said that we must pray to Jesus to win the war (that is, kill more effectively).

Think of all of the well-meaning followers who want to donate to feed the poor, but Reverend Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker took their generous donations and used them for their mansion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

50% of people use statistics correctly, and 75% of people use statistics incorrectly.

That math aint working....there is not 115% human beings there are only 100%

 

[Altfish]

Casual STDs (like AIDS), and casual kids. Wifes are upset, families break up.

Who mentioned sex outside a marriage and unprotected sex?

If two single people want to have casual sex, then it is fine. IMHO