Declaration of Messenger, True or False

[TransmutingSoul]

It has been brought up that a Messenger may only be delusional when they make a claim that they bring a Message from God.

So let's tell a story of how these things unfold and in the end there is only two stances we can justly take, it is either the Truth, or it is false and delusional. I will not put a name to this story, but to say this has happened, but the story is told from my memory of historical records.

Around the turn of 1800 there was an Islamic Scholar in Persia had concluded the long awaited promise of Allah was unfolding, that the 'Day of God' was becoming a reality, this was also unfolding in America, but this story will not consider those happenings.

That scholar got a following of students and he started teaching them of what to look for and who to look for and also that who they were to look for had already been born into the world.

This continued for a couple of decades and from that school when this teacher passed on, came another great teacher who continued the teachings and also offered more signs. This teacher again gained many loyal followers. Just before he passed away and we are now into the 1840's he told all the students they must go out and look for the Messenger, as the promise was just about to unfold.

The students reacted in different ways after the passing of that teacher, but one student 100% devoted to the cause, went on a search after retiring with others for 40 days of prayer and fasting. On that search he came to the gate of Shiraz where he met a young man who was a merchant, who invited and took him home for refreshments. At that meeting that student found the one that he had learnt about, that student has signs that must be fulfilled and the merchant had satisfied all those requirements, he had found a new Messenger.

That Messenger then said to that student, that 17 others, also had to find him in the same way and not until they had found him would the Mission begin. Another 17 did find the same Messenger.

So that was decades long process that to date is not delusional, it was being taught that it was going to happen, except now we have a young Merchant who in accordance to those expectations has made a Claim to be a Messenger from God, and in a very dangerous fundamental Muslim world.

So the Mercahant chose a Disciple from the 18, and then went on Pilgrimage to Mecca. What a bold move, this has to be either the truth or delusional, the danger is apparent.

The proclaimed Messenger completes the pilgrimage and then takes this action as He is facing the Black Stone He met the Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani, and taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation of the Truth which I have proclaimed. Thus shall He who speaks the Truth be made known, and he that speaks falsely shall be condemned to eternal misery and shame. Then shall the way of Truth be revealed and made manifest to all men."

That is it a declaration has been made, the challenge was issued.

That is not where the story ended as there was a trial to determine exactly the purpose of this OP.

Was it the Truth?
Was it the claim of a delusional man?

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

It has been brought up that a Messenger may only be delusional when they make a claim that they bring a Message from God.

So let's tell a story of how these things unfold and in the end there is only two stances we can justly take, it is either the Truth, or it is false and delusional. I will not put a name to this story, but to say this has happened, but the story is told from my memory of historical records.

Around the turn of 1800 there was an Islamic Scholar in Persia had concluded the long awaited promise of Allah was unfolding, that the 'Day of God' was becoming a reality, this was also unfolding in America, but this story will not consider those happenings.

That scholar got a following of students and he started teaching them of what to look for and who to look for and also that who they were to look for had already been born into the world.

This continued for a couple of decades and from that school when this teacher passed on, came another great teacher who continued the teachings and also offered more signs. This teacher again gained many loyal followers. Just before he passed away and we are now into the 1840's he told all the students they must go out and look for the Messenger, as the promise was just about to unfold.

The students reacted in different ways after the passing of that teacher, but one student 100% devoted to the cause, went on a search after retiring with others for 40 days of prayer and fasting. On that search he came to the gate of Shiraz where he met a young man who was a merchant, who invited and took him home for refreshments. At that meeting that student found the one that he had learnt about, that student has signs that must be fulfilled and the merchant had satisfied all those requirements, he had found a new Messenger.

That Messenger then said to that student, that 17 others, also had to find him in the same way and not until they had found him would the Mission begin. Another 17 did find the same Messenger.

So that was decades long process that to date is not delusional, it was being taught that it was going to happen, except now we have a young Merchant who in accordance to those expectations has made a Claim to be a Messenger from God, and in a very dangerous fundamental Muslim world.

So the Mercahant chose a Disciple from the 18, and then went on Pilgrimage to Mecca. What a bold move, this has to be either the truth or delusional, the danger is apparent.

The proclaimed Messenger completes the pilgrimage and then takes this action as He is facing the Black Stone He met the Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani, and taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation of the Truth which I have proclaimed. Thus shall He who speaks the Truth be made known, and he that speaks falsely shall be condemned to eternal misery and shame. Then shall the way of Truth be revealed and made manifest to all men."

That is it a declaration has been made, the challenge was issued.

That is not where the story ended as there was a trial to determine exactly the purpose of this OP.

Was it the Truth?
Was it the claim of a delusional man?

Regards Tony

What we know from you is a declaration from historical records. Not having been present, who would be capable of validating the facts of these events?

What I am aware of is the limited reliability of testimony. That the reality we experience depends a great deal on what we expect to experience. Our conscious awareness is a combination of actual reality and a reality that is preconceived by the subconscious mind. That signs were taught as to what to look for sets up the preconception of what people expected to experience. This allows the subconscious mind to fill in any gaps between reality and the signs that were expected.

Whether it was the truth or the claims of a delusional man is irrelevant to what happened, this trial. A man acts on what they believe to be the truth whether delusional or not the same. Circumstances outside of this determine the outcome, not whether what they belief is truth or delusion. The truth of the claim doesn't matter. Only that they believed it to be true.

 

[Left Coast]

It has been brought up that a Messenger may only be delusional when they make a claim that they bring a Message from God.

So let's tell a story of how these things unfold and in the end there is only two stances we can justly take, it is either the Truth, or it is false and delusional. I will not put a name to this story, but to say this has happened, but the story is told from my memory of historical records.

There is, IMO, a third option, which is that we don't know whether the claim is true or not because we don't don't have sufficient evidence to assess what really happened.

Around the turn of 1800 there was an Islamic Scholar in Persia had concluded the long awaited promise of Allah was unfolding, that the 'Day of God' was becoming a reality, this was also unfolding in America, but this story will not consider those happenings.

That scholar got a following of students and he started teaching them of what to look for and who to look for and also that who they were to look for had already been born into the world.

What, specifically, did he tell them to look for, and how do we know? Do we have eyewitness, independent accounts of his predictions?

This continued for a couple of decades and from that school when this teacher passed on, came another great teacher who continued the teachings and also offered more signs.

Which signs? How do we know? Do we have eyewitness, independent verification of these "signs?"

his teacher again gained many loyal followers. Just before he passed away and we are now into the 1840's he told all the students they must go out and look for the Messenger, as the promise was just about to unfold.

The promise of what, specifically?

The students reacted in different ways after the passing of that teacher, but one student 100% devoted to the cause, went on a search after retiring with others for 40 days of prayer and fasting. On that search he came to the gate of Shiraz where he met a young man who was a merchant, who invited and took him home for refreshments. At that meeting that student found the one that he had learnt about, that student has signs that must be fulfilled and the merchant had satisfied all those requirements, he had found a new Messenger.

Which requirements were satisfied, and how do we know? Do we have independent, eyewitness confirmation of the satisfaction of these requirements? Particularly from people who were not his followers?

So the Mercahant chose a Disciple from the 18, and then went on Pilgrimage to Mecca. What a bold move, this has to be either the truth or delusional, the danger is apparent....

Was it the Truth?
Was it the claim of a delusional man?

The story is short on details, so without those, and the supporting evidence to demonstrate the validity of the claims, it's impossible to know.

 

[night912]

It has been brought up that a Messenger may only be delusional when they make a claim that they bring a Message from God.

So let's tell a story of how these things unfold and in the end there is only two stances we can justly take, it is either the Truth, or it is false and delusional. I will not put a name to this story, but to say this has happened, but the story is told from my memory of historical records.

Around the turn of 1800 there was an Islamic Scholar in Persia had concluded the long awaited promise of Allah was unfolding, that the 'Day of God' was becoming a reality, this was also unfolding in America, but this story will not consider those happenings.

That scholar got a following of students and he started teaching them of what to look for and who to look for and also that who they were to look for had already been born into the world.

This continued for a couple of decades and from that school when this teacher passed on, came another great teacher who continued the teachings and also offered more signs. This teacher again gained many loyal followers. Just before he passed away and we are now into the 1840's he told all the students they must go out and look for the Messenger, as the promise was just about to unfold.

The students reacted in different ways after the passing of that teacher, but one student 100% devoted to the cause, went on a search after retiring with others for 40 days of prayer and fasting. On that search he came to the gate of Shiraz where he met a young man who was a merchant, who invited and took him home for refreshments. At that meeting that student found the one that he had learnt about, that student has signs that must be fulfilled and the merchant had satisfied all those requirements, he had found a new Messenger.

That Messenger then said to that student, that 17 others, also had to find him in the same way and not until they had found him would the Mission begin. Another 17 did find the same Messenger.

So that was decades long process that to date is not delusional, it was being taught that it was going to happen, except now we have a young Merchant who in accordance to those expectations has made a Claim to be a Messenger from God, and in a very dangerous fundamental Muslim world.

So the Mercahant chose a Disciple from the 18, and then went on Pilgrimage to Mecca. What a bold move, this has to be either the truth or delusional, the danger is apparent.

The proclaimed Messenger completes the pilgrimage and then takes this action as He is facing the Black Stone He met the Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani, and taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation of the Truth which I have proclaimed. Thus shall He who speaks the Truth be made known, and he that speaks falsely shall be condemned to eternal misery and shame. Then shall the way of Truth be revealed and made manifest to all men."

That is it a declaration has been made, the challenge was issued.

That is not where the story ended as there was a trial to determine exactly the purpose of this OP.

Was it the Truth?
Was it the claim of a delusional man?

Regards Tony

You're wrong. There's only one stance that we can justly/justifiably take, and that is the stance of, there is no sufficient evidence to demonstrate whether it's true or a claim of a delusional man, therefore, we shouldn't accept either claim and wait for sufficient evidence to show wherever it leads to.

And by "wherever," I mean that it doesn't necessarily have to be those two conclusions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What we know from you is a declaration from historical records. Not having been present, who would be capable of validating the facts of these events?

Would that not be anyone that wanted to know if it was true or not?

The point here would be that you can not accuse this person of being delusional without knowing the facts.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is, IMO, a third option, which is that we don't know whether the claim is true or not because we don't don't have sufficient evidence to assess what really happened.

You're wrong. There's only one stance that we can justly/justifiably take, and that is the stance of, there is no sufficient evidence to demonstrate whether it's true or a claim of a delusional man, therefore, we shouldn't accept either claim and wait for sufficient evidence to show wherever it leads to.

And by "wherever," I mean that it doesn't necessarily have to be those two conclusions.

These two posts both offer there was not sufficient evidence for us. So that is OK, I would offer then, given there was not enough evidence, then we would not make a statement that the person was a source of truth or delusional. lf we have determined there was not enough evidence, then we can not make a statement either way.

YetI see there was over 40 years of records where people are predicting and awaiting this event and there are records of people looking for the event to happen.

There was then acceptance by those people that they had found the person they were looking for and these are recorded.

In turn it is recorded that this person more then demonstrated that he was the one they awaited for and then made that claim public.

So those records are available, thus can we say it would then boil down to our own motivation to pursue that evidence? That is if we want to say that person is delusional, we should only offer that stance, if we have looked at the evidence?

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

It has been brought up that a Messenger may only be delusional when they make a claim that they bring a Message from God.

So let's tell a story of how these things unfold and in the end there is only two stances we can justly take, it is either the Truth, or it is false and delusional. I will not put a name to this story, but to say this has happened, but the story is told from my memory of historical records.

Around the turn of 1800 there was an Islamic Scholar in Persia had concluded the long awaited promise of Allah was unfolding, that the 'Day of God' was becoming a reality, this was also unfolding in America, but this story will not consider those happenings.

That scholar got a following of students and he started teaching them of what to look for and who to look for and also that who they were to look for had already been born into the world.

This continued for a couple of decades and from that school when this teacher passed on, came another great teacher who continued the teachings and also offered more signs. This teacher again gained many loyal followers. Just before he passed away and we are now into the 1840's he told all the students they must go out and look for the Messenger, as the promise was just about to unfold.

The students reacted in different ways after the passing of that teacher, but one student 100% devoted to the cause, went on a search after retiring with others for 40 days of prayer and fasting. On that search he came to the gate of Shiraz where he met a young man who was a merchant, who invited and took him home for refreshments. At that meeting that student found the one that he had learnt about, that student has signs that must be fulfilled and the merchant had satisfied all those requirements, he had found a new Messenger.

That Messenger then said to that student, that 17 others, also had to find him in the same way and not until they had found him would the Mission begin. Another 17 did find the same Messenger.

So that was decades long process that to date is not delusional, it was being taught that it was going to happen, except now we have a young Merchant who in accordance to those expectations has made a Claim to be a Messenger from God, and in a very dangerous fundamental Muslim world.

So the Mercahant chose a Disciple from the 18, and then went on Pilgrimage to Mecca. What a bold move, this has to be either the truth or delusional, the danger is apparent.

The proclaimed Messenger completes the pilgrimage and then takes this action as He is facing the Black Stone He met the Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani, and taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation of the Truth which I have proclaimed. Thus shall He who speaks the Truth be made known, and he that speaks falsely shall be condemned to eternal misery and shame. Then shall the way of Truth be revealed and made manifest to all men."

That is it a declaration has been made, the challenge was issued.

That is not where the story ended as there was a trial to determine exactly the purpose of this OP.

Was it the Truth?
Was it the claim of a delusional man?

Regards Tony

I believe the only way to know personally if the clam are true or false is to practice what the person (prophet) saying, just listening would not necessary give answer to if it is true or not. but practicing will either awake you from within, or do nothing at all to you. Then when you have practiced for some time if the teaching is truth, your thoughts, action and words will change to become pure if the teaching was true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe the only way to know personally if the clam are true or false is to practice what the person (prophet) saying, just listening would not necessary give answer to if it is true or not. but practicing will either awake you from within, or do nothing at all to you. Then when you have practiced for some time if the teaching is truth, your thoughts, action and words will change to become pure if the teaching was true.

That is indeed a good way to practice a chosen faith, well done!

This OP is exploring comments made in other OPs where it is being offered that people claiming to be a Messenger from God are delusional, that they may have suffered from a messiah complex (Christ complex or savior complex)

This is that definition. "It is a state of mind in which an individual holds a belief that they are destined to become a savior today or in the near future. The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that they are responsible for saving or assisting others."

So it was offered that a Messenger suffers from a misguided delusion.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is indeed a good way to practice a chosen faith, well done!

This OP is exploring comments made in other OPs where it is being offered that people claiming to be a Messenger from God are delusional, that they may have suffered from a messiah complex (Christ complex or savior complex)

This is that definition. "It is a state of mind in which an individual holds a belief that they are destined to become a savior today or in the near future. The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that they are responsible for saving or assisting others."

So it was offered that a Messenger suffers from a misguided delusion.

Regards Tony

A true prophet would not call themself prophet, that arises from those who become followers in my understanding, so if a person says "I am a prophet with a message from God" that might not be the case in my understanding.

 

[Left Coast]

These two posts both offer there was not sufficient evidence for us. So that is OK, I would offer then, given there was not enough evidence, then we would not make a statement that the person was a source of truth or delusional. lf we have determined there was not enough evidence, then we can not make a statement either way.

YetI see there was over 40 years of records where people are predicting and awaiting this event and there are records of people looking for the event to happen.

Cool, let's see them.

There was then acceptance by those people that they had found the person they were looking for and these are recorded.

In turn it is recorded that this person more then demonstrated that he was the one they awaited for and then made that claim public.

Recorded by whom? On what basis?

So those records are available, thus can we say it would then boil down to our own motivation to pursue that evidence? That is if we want to say that person is delusional, we should only offer that stance, if we have looked at the evidence?

Regards Tony

It's also about prior probability. I hope you and I can agree that if we were to gather all the claims of all the people in the history of the world who have made these sorts of extraordinary claims - that they are prophets, or messiahs, or angels, or demons, or reincarnations of Jesus or some other figure, or mediums for the dead, etc. - that most of these wild claims are false. The vast majority, at least. They are either charlatans, or they're delusional, or in some cases legends have been attributed to them by followers that never actually happened.

So when you're asking us to evaluate yet another one of these cases, it's not unreasonable that, before we've even looked at new evidence for this particular case, that we would say that it is extremely likely out of the gate that this is going to turn out to be false just like the vast majority of others. It might not be, but the likelihood is very high.

 

[Nakosis]

Would that not be anyone that wanted to know if it was true or not?

The point here would be that you can not accuse this person of being delusional without knowing the facts.

Regards Tony

The facts are seldom known. At which point, people take their best guess.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So when you're asking us to evaluate yet another one of these cases, it's not unreasonable that, before we've even looked at new evidence for this particular case, that we would say that it is extremely likely out of the gate that this is going to turn out to be false just like the vast majority of others. It might not be, but the likelihood is very high.

Actually I am not asking you to evaluate anything unless you are going to make a comment about a specific Messenger.

The OP is really exploring how people make judgement without really looking for all the evidence. In your reply you asked me to provide evidence for the story I told.

Why? Does the story interest you?

It would have to be of interest if you are actually going to choose to read the history and look for all sources that can be found, so one can make an informed decision.

Here is one source.

Spoiler: Dawnbreakers Nabils Narrative

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The facts are seldom known. At which point, people take their best guess.

In the case of the brief story I told, there is history recorded of events that happened in the 1800's taken from the actual first hand witnesses or told from reliable 2nd hand sources, as many of the first hand witnesses had been put to death.

So that evidence is available, but it is comprehensive and thus one would have and interest to pursue it.

In other cases, I can agree as time goes on the facts do get distorted, as the nature of men who appose a Messenger, actually go out of their way to do that very thing.

But if we have justice as our motivation, then we can still draw a fairly accurate picture of the Person and the aim of a messenger that has proven true over time.

Regards Tony

Such as Jesus and Muhammad, to name a couple, that have had many such distorted views cloud their Messages and persons.

 

[Trailblazer]

A true prophet would not call themself prophet, that arises from those who become followers in my understanding, so if a person says "I am a prophet with a message from God" that might not be the case in my understanding.

I might be wrong because I don't know the Qur'an very well, hardly at all, but didn't Muhammad claim to be a Messenger of God? If He didn't then why do Muslims believe he is a Messenger of God?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I might be wrong because I don't know the Qur'an very well, hardly at all, but didn't Muhammad claim to be a Messenger of God? If He didn't then why do Muslims believe he is a Messenger of God?

How did Muhammad know that he was to be a messenger of Allah?

One night during Ramadan, the traditional month of spiritual retreat, when Muhammad was about forty years old, an angel appeared to him in the form of a man and ordered him to; Recite in the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot; ... Eventually, the angel told Muhammad to begin proclaiming God's message.

So in my understanding, Muhammad did not himself claim it, he was told who he was by the Angel.
So as I said someone else told him who he was about to become.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A true prophet would not call themself prophet, that arises from those who become followers in my understanding, so if a person says "I am a prophet with a message from God" that might not be the case in my understanding.

At some time the followers must conclude that the Message is from Allah and that the person is a Messenger, so I agree that would be the case.

How do they come to that conclusion of the Messenger did not tell them that was the source?

It is God that asks the Messenger to speak, so the Messenger in turn let's humanity know they speak with the voice of Allah.

What does the Quran offer? I had a quick look and found a couple of passages.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How did Muhammad know that he was to be a messenger of Allah?

One night during Ramadan, the traditional month of spiritual retreat, when Muhammad was about forty years old, an angel appeared to him in the form of a man and ordered him to; Recite in the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot; ... Eventually, the angel told Muhammad to begin proclaiming God's message.

So in my understanding, Muhammad did not himself claim it, he was told who he was by the Angel.
So as I said someone else told him who he was about to become.

Moses was the burning Bush, Jesus was the Dove, Muhammad was the angel Gabriel, the Bab was the severed Head of Imam Ali and Baha'u'llah was the Maid from Heaven.

They are all symbolic of the Word of God and at some time that have to declare that they are giving a Message from God.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

Moses was the burning Bush, Jesus was the Dove, Muhammad was the angel Gabriel, the Bab was the severed Head of Imam Ali and Baha'u'llah was the Maid from Heaven.

They are all symbolic of the Word of God and at some time that have to declare that they are giving a Message from God.

Regards Tony

I know that Muhammad was visited by the angel Jibril or Gabriel as others know the name of this angel by, So I am not sure the teaching in Baha`i say Muhammad was Gabriel?
I know I am not very well versed in this topic, but your info was new to me

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know that Muhammad was visited by the angel Jibril or Gabriel as others know the name of this angel by, So I am not sure the teaching in Baha`i say Muhammad was Gabriel?
I know I am not very well versed in this topic, but your info was new to me

Baha'u'llah teaches us that Muhammad was a Messenger from God (peace be upon him).

All Messengers have a time when they find out what it is God has asked them to do.

Up to that time we knew them as Kind, Just and noble men.

Baha'u'llah explained the vision like this.

"...... I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow...."

For Muhammad the angel commanded him to recite the words before him and we know that Muhammad had never been taught to read or write but he was able to recite the words. So In this way, Allah's message continued to be revealed to Muhammad over the next 23 years.

Regards Tony

 

[Left Coast]

Actually I am not asking you to evaluate anything unless you are going to make a comment about a specific Messenger.

The OP explicitly asks people to evaluate the story you told...which is about one of your faith's messengers, is it not?

The OP is really exploring how people make judgement without really looking for all the evidence. In your reply you asked me to provide evidence for the story I told.

Why? Does the story interest you?

If the story is true and you actually have evidence to back it up, it certainly interests me, of course! What could be more interesting than having rock solid confirmation that a Messenger from the creator of the universe has visited us and given us infallible teachings?

It would have to be of interest if you are actually going to choose to read the history and look for all sources that can be found, so one can make an informed decision.

Here is one source.

Spoiler: Dawnbreakers Nabils Narrative

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

Regards Tony

This source, it appears, was written by this guy, a disciple of Bahaullah:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabíl-i-Aʻzam

Right? So first question, before I go through and actually read the relevant portions, does he provide citations for how he knows the things he reports? Was he an eyewitness to all of it? Does he identify the eyewitnesses who reported the things he says? Are there any other accounts from historians that were not Bahais that confirm these alleged amazing events I'm going to read about?