Debate vs Discussion: What's the Difference?

[Sunstone]

QUESTION:

What is the difference on RF between debate and discussion so far as the moderators, administrators, and the rules and policies of the Forum are concerned?​

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

If the words in your post have the same or similar effect as trying to prove another member is wrong, you are likely to be judged to be debating.

If the words in your post do not have the same or similar effect as trying to prove another member is wrong, you are unlikely to be judged to be debating.​

WHAT YOU CAN AND CANNOT DO TO STAY WITHIN THE RULES:

YOU CAN...

• State your position, views, and opinions.
• Ask respectful questions of other members about their own positions, views, and opinions.
• Respectfully discuss your position, views, and opinions with other members.
  
• Compare and contrast your position, views, and opinions with those of other member's positions, views, and opinions, but only for the purpose -- and in the spirit of -- clarification.
• Give reasons and evidence to show your reasoning, or to show you are right.

YOU CANNOT...

• Try to show that another member's positions, views, and opinions are wrong.

It would be a mistake to think that the distinction between a discussion and a debate pivots on whether or not the posters are civil, pleasant, polite, or anything like that. The distinction pivots on whether the posters are trying to prove each other's views and opinions wrong.

FOR EXAMPLE: You state your own views. In the next post, someone else states theirs. Your views and their views happen to contradict each other. But because you stated your views without specifically referring to them or to their views as 'wrong', you are not "debating".

AGAIN: Just like above, you state your own views. In the next post, someone else states theirs. Your views and their views happen to contradict each other. But this time, you respond by first indicating or specifying your opponent in some fashion -- such as by quoting them -- and then declaring or indicating their views are wrong. In that case, you are "debating".​

RF RULE NUMBER TEN: DEBATING IN NON-DEBATE FORUMS OR POSTING IN DIR/ONLY FORUMS:

Religious forums is structured to provide spaces for many different kinds of conversations. Different kinds of conversations belong in different areas of the forum:

1) Debates should be kept to the debate areas of the forums, including Religious Debates, General Debates, and Political Debates. Debating anywhere other than these forums may result in moderation. Same Faith Debates is governed by special rules described here. Only members of the specified groups(s) can participate in these threads.

2) All DIR (Discuss Individual Religions) forums are for the use of members who identify with those groups or practices. Debating is not permitted in DIRs; debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates. Members who do not identify with a DIR group may only post respectful questions; we recommend creating a thread in the Religions Q&A instead where there is more freedom to comment. DIR forums are not to be used as a cover to bash others outside of the DIR group.

3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there.​

RF MISSION STATEMENT:

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.​

 

[Secret Chief]

So we can only discuss this, not debate?

 

[PureX]

Still rattling around in the attic, I see.

 

[Secret Chief]

It looks to me a distinction that is hard to maintain. The two words are, to a greater or lesser extent, synonyms. I won't claim to know how much the two circles would overlap in a Venn diagram but a quick check for definitions (as used by the general population, as opposed to ones created by an internet forum) highlights the problem imo:

Debate:
"A debate is a discussion about a subject on which people have different views."
- Collins dictionary.

Discussion:
"Consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate."
- Merriam-Webster dictionary.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It looks to me a distinction that is hard to maintain. The two words are, to a greater or lesser extent, synonyms. I won't claim to know how much the two circles would overlap in a Venn diagram but a quick check for definitions (as used by the general population, as opposed to ones created by an internet forum) highlights the problem imo:

Debate:
"A debate is a discussion about a subject on which people have different views."
- Collins dictionary.

Discussion:
"Consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate."
- Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Yes, but the definitions for the purposes of this forum have been defined for you in the OP.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, but the definitions for the purposes of this forum have been defined for you in the OP.

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

 

[Stevicus]

QUESTION:

What is the difference on RF between debate and discussion so far as the moderators, administrators, and the rules of the Forum are concerned?​

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

If the words in your post have the same or similar effect as trying to prove another member is wrong, you are likely to be judged to be debating.

If the words in your post do not have the same or similar effect as trying to prove another member is wrong, you are unlikely to be judged to be debating.​

WHAT YOU CAN AND CANNOT DO TO STAY WITHIN THE RULES:

YOU CAN...

• State your position, views, and opinions.
• Ask respectful questions of other members about their own positions, views, and opinions.
• Respectfully discuss your position, views, and opinions with other members.
  
• Compare and contrast your position, views, and opinions with those of other member's positions, views, and opinions, but only for the purpose -- and in the spirit of -- clarification.
• Give reasons and evidence to show your reasoning, or to show you are right.

YOU CANNOT...

• Try to show that another member's positions, views, and opinions are wrong.

RF RULE NUMBER TEN: DEBATING IN NON-DEBATE FORUMS OR POSTING IN DIR/ONLY FORUMS:

Religious forums is structured to provide spaces for many different kinds of conversations. Different kinds of conversations belong in different areas of the forum:

1) Debates should be kept to the debate areas of the forums, including Religious Debates, General Debates, and Political Debates. Debating anywhere other than these forums may result in moderation. Same Faith Debates is governed by special rules described here. Only members of the specified groups(s) can participate in these threads.

2) All DIR (Discuss Individual Religions) forums are for the use of members who identify with those groups or practices. Debating is not permitted in DIRs; debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates. Members who do not identify with a DIR group may only post respectful questions; we recommend creating a thread in the Religions Q&A instead where there is more freedom to comment. DIR forums are not to be used as a cover to bash others outside of the DIR group.

3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there.​

RF MISSION STATEMENT:

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.​

In cases where there is thread drift, is it possible to split a thread where some of it seems to deviate from the topic? Some threads start off as discussions - or at least intended to be that way, but then degenerate into arguments.

Someone could start a thread and say "I like puppies and picking daisies on sunny days" and a few pages later, people are posting that "Hillary is the anti-Christ" or "Trump is evil." The moderators might close the thread because it's turned into a debate, but the OP might have only intended to talk about puppies and picking daisies.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

Good question. You may absolutely express your opinion and why you think it is correct by presenting your reasoning or evidence, but you may not assert that another's opinion is wrong.

 

[SalixIncendium]

In cases where there is thread drift, is it possible to split a thread where some of it seems to deviate from the topic? Some threads start off as discussions - or at least intended to be that way, but then degenerate into arguments.

Someone could start a thread and say "I like puppies and picking daisies on sunny days" and a few pages later, people are posting that "Hillary is the anti-Christ" or "Trump is evil." The moderators might close the thread because it's turned into a debate, but the OP might have only intended to talk about puppies and picking daisies.

In such cases, those that derailed the discussion and initiated or participated in debate are issued a warning or reminder on Rule 10, and debate posts or off-topic posts are deleted.

We typically don't take the off-topic posts and move them to another thread, but it can be done under special circumstances.

 

[Sunstone]

In cases where there is thread drift, is it possible to split a thread where some of it seems to deviate from the topic? Some threads start off as discussions - or at least intended to be that way, but then degenerate into arguments.

Someone could start a thread and say "I like puppies and picking daisies on sunny days" and a few pages later, people are posting that "Hillary is the anti-Christ" or "Trump is evil." The moderators might close the thread because it's turned into a debate, but the OP might have only intended to talk about puppies and picking daisies.

That's a good suggestion, Stevicus, one worth considering. Thank you for it!

I don't know how the Staff discussion of it will go, but I can see the advantages of preserving what we can of a discussion or debate. Taking into account what Salix has said, I can see using it in special circumstances.

 

[Sunstone]

Yes, but the definitions for the purposes of this forum have been defined for you in the OP.

Dictionary definitions are irrelevant in this context to whatever extent they contradict the Forum's definitions. On the Forum, the Forum decides how to interpret it's own rules.

 

[Sunstone]

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

If you wish, you can always start a debate thread in a debate forum on the same topic. There is no RF Rule saying you cannot start your own thread.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

It only pertains to general discussion areas, so you can re-raise the question in a debate area. Then what you can do is present the point you want to debate against, being careful not to call-out the person. Call outs are against the rules. A call out thread starts by quoting another member's comment for debate or by publicly challenging them. Instead just restate the opinion that you want to disagree with in your new thread, and then hopefully that will attract the person to debate with you there.

You may also privately ask the person to debate you in a debate area.

Here's an example. Suppose you have told me that turtles don't fart, and we're in the Philosophy section. I happen to know that turtles do, in fact, fart. I can say "I believe that turtles fart." I can also start another thread in a debate ares and begin it by saying "There was a discussion in which someone commented that turtles didn't fart, and I'd like that to disagree with that. They fart. They fart so much."

 

[SalixIncendium]

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

If you wish, you can always start a debate thread in a debate forum on the same topic. There is no RF Rule saying you cannot start your own thread.

Just a word of caution. If you are starting your own debate thread based on another member's opinion, please don't call out that member, especially in a negative light, or quote that member's post in a new thread without their permission.


ETA: It would appear @Brickjectivity summarized these thoughts as I was composing this.

 

[Secret Chief]

If you wish, you can always start a debate thread in a debate forum on the same topic. There is no RF Rule saying you cannot start your own thread.

Well yes but that seems like duplication.

 

[Secret Chief]

Note to self: You can debate Philosophy but you must only discuss Psychology.

Overall: strewth.

 

[joe1776]

Good question. You may absolutely express your opinion and why you think it is correct by presenting your reasoning or evidence, but you may not assert that another's opinion is wrong.

So, as a progressive, I can imply by my argument that my opponent's conservative political opinion is wrong. I just can't say it unless I'm in a debate forum. Is that it?

 

[Sunstone]

ETA: It would appear @Brickjectivity summarized these thoughts as I was composing this.

I didn't quite catch that. What were you composting again?

 

[Katzpur]

I appreciate that. If I believe that somebody is wrong about something that they have said in a discussion thread how can I express my opinion? Or can I not? How do I respectfully discuss my opinion if it is diametrically opposed to the other?

I don't think it's all that hard. You can begin by saying, "In my opinion..." or "The way I see it..." or "From my perspective..." You can say what you believe (even if it is diametrically opposed to what someone else believes) by focusing on your own reasons for believing as you do and not even really bringing the other person's opinions into the discussion. I also think that the words we use are important. Every person who posts here knows that certain words and phrases are going to be insulting or offensive to other people. I have found that if you really want to have a civil dialogue with someone you disagree with, you will put some effort into avoiding those words. You can say what you believe without even implying that the other person's beliefs are stupid, ignorant or baseless. The tone of a discussion is a critical; unfortunately, it's also a pretty nebulous factor.

 

[Sunstone]

So, as a progressive, I can imply by my argument that my opponent's conservative political opinion is wrong. I just can't say it. Is that it?

Depends on what you mean by "imply". Do you mean what some people call, "Saying something without really saying it", "beating around the bush", "taking a dig at someone while covering your tracks", etc. If so, then, no, you cannot "imply" someone is wrong.

Don't let your implications "just happen" to look like attempts to evade or circumvent the rules. That is, don't let them look like attempts to debate.