Debate the Logic of a World Order.

[Trailblazer]

In this debate, even though this is a teaching of my faith, remember it will not be the Baha'i that will do this, if it is to happen. So will it and does it need to happen?

As a Baha'i I believe it will happen and that it has to happen. Moreover, it is already happening all around us at an increasingly rapid pace and in spite of the chaos all over the world, I am very excited, because the way things had been dragging on for decades, I thought I'd never see it within my lifetime. Now I am more hopeful that things are changing for the better, even if things have to fall apart before they get better. The darkest hour is just before the dawn of a new day. I believe this New Day has been ushered in by the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

The following short excerpts from longer tablets are very interesting. Who is We? I believe that "We" refers to God and Baha'u'llah, and perhaps the other Manifestations of God who inhabit the realms above. This quote indicates to me that humans will not be doing this alone, but rather we will be assisted by God.

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

This following excerpt again indicates that we will not be doing this alone, but rather we will be assisted by God. I believe that "acceptable in Our sight" means what will be acceptable in the sight of God and His Manifestations. This quote indicates that it will not be primarily the Baha'is who are building the new world order, but rather all of mankind will be involved. No such feat could ever be accomplished except by mankind working together. I can see that happening all over the world right now, mankind coming together with unity of purpose for the good of their fellow men, and I am very excited.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings, p. 7

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The fate of humanity.

It takes a new leader in human life to ensure new old ideas for family and extended family to be cared for in life on God earth.

So a single individual gives the advice. The status is needed advice. History advice already pre stated totally ignored.

So they impress a new title so that maybe humans might listen to the same human advice.

Technology weapons was science our life destroyer changed our consciousness. Earth reattacked was by old science causes. We knew.

Yet if we lay blame we know the human ego retaliates. As it is embarrassed about its non intelligence when science claimed highest intelligence.

So Baha'i said let's ignore science satanism and teach our needs.

Lots of humans agree. Natural separation occurs in causes of a held believed teaching.

A new group owning the same human spiritual motivation.

Yet the old teaching always said one human delivers the message and advice for everyone by life in a sacrifice.

I know I lived the experience of advice. My psychic advice from a baby began with an NDE. A recording that continued to advise me spiritually bodily and psychic all my life via humans suffering losing their spiritual existence.

So I can personally relate to the Baha'i message an updated Jesus advice.

And know what it is like to be harmed and spiritually ignored and even belittled by the egos of other humans without the experienced advice.

Reasoned why. Motivation for life's experiences to be its highest inheritance family love kindness care mutual admiration and trade always was needed.

You have included many good points and some personal reflections that I see have good advice.

I see in this age, all the leaders have to step up for the good of all people and that advice, to me comes from a higher power.

All the best Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As a Baha'i I believe it will happen and that it has to happen. Moreover, it is already happening all around us at an increasingly rapid pace and in spite of the chaos all over the world, I am very excited, because the way things had been dragging on for decades, I thought I'd never see it within my lifetime. Now I am more hopeful that things are changing for the better, even if things have to fall apart before they get better. The darkest hour is just before the dawn of a new day. I believe this New Day has been ushered in by the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

The following short excerpts from longer tablets are very interesting. Who is We? I believe that "We" refers to God and Baha'u'llah, and perhaps the other Manifestations of God who inhabit the realms above. This quote indicates to me that humans will not be doing this alone, but rather we will be assisted by God.

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

This following excerpt again indicates that we will not be doing this alone, but rather we will be assisted by God. I believe that "acceptable in Our sight" means what will be acceptable in the sight of God and His Manifestations. This quote indicates that it will not be primarily the Baha'is who are building the new world order, but rather all of mankind will be involved. No such feat could ever be accomplished except by mankind working together. I can see that happening all over the world right now, mankind coming together with unity of purpose for the good of their fellow men, and I am very excited.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings, p. 7

I would only offer that the lesser peace requires the elected governments and nation rulers to initiate the process for the Lesser Peace.

In one of the posts above, it have the feeling we will see the foundations, but it may require quite a few years and more convulsions to come.

Let's hope sooner than later.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

Am I right in thinking that what the JWs would see as a sign of end times (a global government) would likewise be seen by Baha'i as a positive step in our evolution as a species?

That is 100% Correct Lewis, it was really an eye opener form me when I first heard, and they are not the only Christians that think this way.

It has since been a subject of discussion between my JW friends and I since the 1980's.

Yet what does thy kingdom come on earth as in heaven mean? God has always rendered unto caesar what is caesar's.

Regards Tony

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sorry for the pessimism but I think we will destroy ourselves long before anything like that can happen.

Sometimes, I wonder about that myself.

 

[firedragon]

This topic is dear to my heart, as this is what I live for, a day when as a citizen of the World we all work together for the common good for all humanity.

This is not about your faith verse my faith, or faith verse atheists.

In the big picture I see faith teaches about the possibility and inevitability of a united humanity and I would assume many people of no faith long for a day when they an live in peace with equal opportunities in life.

Way back in the 1800's, just as the world was considering the smallness of our part in the universe it was said that peace would only come in one way, that path is to the extent we choose to submit to given laws, that will need to be establish by a world tribunal.

So this is the wisdom to be considered and debated, is this what we need, will it be what we need?

"... The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny."

In this debate, even though this is a teaching of my faith, remember it will not be the Baha'i that will do this, if it is to happen. So will it and does it need to happen?

It can only be achieved by tyranny and invasion.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That is 100% Correct Lewis, it was really an eye opener form me when I first heard, and they are not the only Christians that think this way.

It has since been a subject of discussion between my JW friends and I since the 1980's.

Yet what does thy kingdom come on earth as in heaven mean? God has always rendered unto caesar what is caesar's.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony, thanks for the clarification, had never really put two and two together on this before!!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It can only be achieved by tyranny and invasion.

That has been the way in the past, this needs to change and I see it will.

I hope it does not take a 3rd world war, but it may, as there is still a lot of Prophecy to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony, thanks for the clarification, had never really put two and two together on this before!!

Yes, it is not something I advertise, but now it is out.

There is far to much doctrine to argue.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sometimes, I wonder about that myself.

You are justified in that thought.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If human rights ever become universal then we would have sufficient common values to unite under, but until some of the basic ideas of what constitutes a human right are shared I can't see any advantage to not fighting off external sources that would seek to impose their own ideas upon us.

What do you think, would you agree to peace if it meant covering your women in a burka and forcing them to stay indoors and out of school? If it meant silencing intellectuals who have scientific disagreement with your beliefs? I think a degree of disunity is justified until some basic issues can be sorted out.

In my opinion.

Good to hear from you Daniel. I would agree that we need to continue protest and actions against human rights obligations in all Nations. This has to be a priority for any action taken to bring together the Nations at a conference table. It is complicated, no easy solution.

The peace options you have offered, I see can not happen, as all those issue would have to be addressed. Women are now educated to know that they are man's equal, if not superior in values and morality. So not that is not the peace I see the world will build.

I think the peace will be built on some kind of acceptance of what Baha'u'llah offered, even if in that decision making process people remain unaware that it has been put forward as a requirement.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I think the peace will be built on some kind of acceptance of what Baha'u'llah offered, even if in that decision making process people remain unaware that it has been put forward as a requirement.

I think people might adopt bits and pieces of what Baha'u'llah offered, but to be honest I doubt that the masses would ever accept the whole lot.

In my opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

A World Order might lead to a One World Dictatorship at this chaotic point in time.

If it be put together by the assent of all nations, this will not happen. Mind you, this will not happen soon. I believe that it will take a lot for this to happen. Unfortunately, mankind being as it is it may have to reach a point where it is necessary to unify to save any state of affairs short of disaster. We have not reached that point yet.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think people might adopt bits and pieces of what Baha'u'llah offered, but to be honest I doubt that the masses would ever accept the whole lot.

In my opinion.

I see you are quite correct for the immediate future and maybe quite some time to come.

I have always thought that it will never be embraced by a multitude until this unfolds.

"The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."

That is the unfurling, so that may be next week, that may be 2 centuries, who can know?

I also consider this passage Daniel,

" When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth."

Ther is indeed a world of trials underway, ut I see much more will need to happen, as here in Australia people just want to return to the way of life they are used to, we need to change.

Al the best Daniel, stay safe, stay happy.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

Order owns two status.

Life owns natural order abide it or..
.
I will demand impose an order.

That conscious advice says to order by an order causes problems.

If humans simply placate I am reapplying notification of natural order. Family is first. Natural order status and rights.

The young work til old then become the wise leadership. Elderly Who care for the young whilst the healthy mutual equal work.

So everyone owns a place and is needed and has natural acceptable status.

We begin putting the elder wise in the place of most wise in all family groups contemplating family advice for all of humanity.

Which is every human DNA group.

Is where it needs to begin.

No place for business men.
No place for the lazy greedy.

No misrepresentation of mutual purpose family.

 

[SigurdReginson]

One thing I always heard often in church was that a "world order" would signal the end times due to prophecy. The concept was always mentioned as a bad thing.

I love the idea of a star trek future with an Earth Federation or something, but a lot of things would need to happen for that to unfold. We aren't close to that yet.

That said, the world is shrinking every day. Maybe it's not impossible, if given enough time.

 

[Truthseeker]

I can't see any sort of democratic process that would work, and I can't think of any leader selection process that would work.

Only fascism could hold the entire world in a global government, and I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I'd prefer what we have now to trying for a single global government.

If we don't with all the dangers like nuclear proliferation and climate change we need to unite. As it is now will become untenable in the future. Fascism could never hold the world together, people would reject this and rebel. Look at what happened with repressive systems in the past. Also, how could one country today conquer all other countries. That's impossible. The only way we could have a world government is if the nations assent to this, and they would only assent to this if there are safeguards against fascism or other repressive governments. Look at the United States of America. They united, and how repressive is it's government? The EU is not as strong of a union as the USA, but they have a sort of union that is not repressive.

 

[Truthseeker]

As we see humanity today, it's not possible and maybe not desirable. The EU is a case in point about how hard it is even with a limited context.

Yeah, it's not going as well with the EU these days.

Of course there will be international institutions to deal with common questions, but a lot of what we see today as a need is due to the emotional and spiritual immaturity of humanity.

That's exactly what the government would be. It would be a government to deal with common questions. Only questions that commonly concern all the nations would be decided by this world government. Even considering we are not spiritually mature yet, the very process of erecting this government will help us mature.

 

[Truthseeker]

The key is going to be getting rid of capitalism. Without doing that there can be no truly united, global governance. IMO

There does need to be a way to solve the problem of enormous gap between rich and poor. This helps make the world unstable, and disunited. I don't have the solution of how that is to be done at this time.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sorry for the pessimism but I think we will destroy ourselves long before anything like that can happen.

We will do it in order to prevent us from destroying ourselves. I think you're underestimating our resilience.