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Featured Debate a Muslim

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ghazaly, Jul 21, 2021.

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  1. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    OK, now that is settled, let's deal with women being witnesses.
     
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  2. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    I don't know what you mean. We vote several times per year on basically everything. From wether cows should keep their horns, or Muslim women should keep their veil. My agreement rate with the rest is about 70% (I lost when I voted that cows should keep their horns, but won when I voted that women should show their faces). That means, I am on the losing side 3 times out of 10. Which is good. I would not have applied for Swiss citizenship if I did not have some agreement with the Volk here.

    So, what? That is what direct democracy is all about.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    There is also the issue that a law that turns out to be bad or incomplete can be changed or refined later.

    That isn't the case for religious doctrines.
     
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  4. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Exactly. Religious doctrines are considered unchanging. Actually, they even believe that is evidence that they are true :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    When that is *precisely* the reason they are bad. They cannot be changed to suit the circumstances.
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats great. You live in a great country. Very good.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    According to which school of thought is it not changeable or as you said "cannot be changed"?
     
  8. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Thanks. Where are you from? Iran?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Is it a religious dictate? And can you change the rules of religion?

    And, if they can be changed, do you agree they should be?

    Specifically, should one woman be allowed to be a witness without another woman as another witness?
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Haha. Yes yes.

    Rules of "religion" can change, has changed, and can change in the future.

    Islam was not known as a religion to Muslims until God really knows when. So even the use of the word Religion is not appropriate for islam. The real word for religion would be Milleth or/and madhab. This is the Fusha atthurath which means the old language of the Qur'an. The word Dheen used in the Qur'an doesnt mean religion. It is an English translation made to easily relate but the actual meaning is "system". The problem with this kind of thing is, just go through this thread and you will know, googling is everything. I know that googling is probably the only option but you should also know that it is extremely superficial and shallow. Well, you probably won't accept it anyway.

    Nevermind that. Its irrelevant I suppose. I will speak from the traditional islamic perspective of religious scholars and their interpretations and inferences on the subject of Islam. Masaar atthaweel, is probably one of the oldest teachings in Islam. It means traveling or on the move, interpretation.

    Later.
     
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  11. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Well, at least Christians do not have a pedophile prophet (pbuh).

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    OK, so do you think *this* rule concerning women as witnesses *should* be changed? And is there a way to change it under Islamic law?
     
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  13. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    According to Christianity Jesus died on the cross

    According to Islam, Jesus didn’t die on the cross

    So this is a relevant difference between both religions and I think history strongly supports the Christian view,
     
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  14. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    No, but I made no claims about them. I do know the animals are on average kept in bad conditions all their lives and suffer of a lot of stress - something which in halal slaughter should not be the case.
     
  15. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Well, we believe we should get rid of both. Bad conditions, and Halal. That is not a competition of what is less inhuman.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  16. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    Wait, are you taking personal responsibility over the oppression of Muslim women?
     
  17. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    And what is the reason you object to halal slaughter? Do you know how that works?
     
  18. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Do you ask if I voted to ban face covering in Switzerland (except during pandemics and carnival)? Yes. I also went celebrating with my girlfriends when we won.
    I also voted for the ban on minarets.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  19. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    No. But I heard it is pretty cruel.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Of course it should be.

    Rationally, it would depend on a lot of things. This was not considered as "allowed" first of all. This is the way you have perceived because of propaganda. Islamic law came way, way, way before any of the ahadith were ever written down on this matter. There is one hadith from Bukhari's kuthub as sahih. That hadith speaks of women having half the value in testimony. This was narrated ultimately (apparently) after Bukhari died, by his unvouched for (In islamic tradition someone has to vouch for someone elses scholarship) student called Firabry. And the manuscript tradition dates to approximately the 14th century which is 700 years after Muhammed. Anyway, it is predominantly Christian evangelists who demonised this and you have inherited that. No doubt.

    No one said "women are not allowed". It is the person who signs the contract who is told to get two women as witnesses if not one man. So saying "it is not allowed" is a twist in it. Of course, you will not accept it.

    So the idea is that women and men are equal in Gods eyes. But they have differences biologically and sociologically. You will of course look at it from where ever you are. And in the future, maybe they will have a machine to take care of the child, maybe they will have other highly superior technology where you won't even have to step out of the house to vote. Maybe they will develop surrogate robots to represent you in courts. Well, in that case, this law is unnecessary.

    At the moment if you go to lets say a place in Asia where in a village a mother gives birth at home or at the local government funded hospital. Then she gets 4 to 5 months maternity leave. The father if he is employed or is a farmer or a businessman will have no choice but to go to work. The mother has no choice but to stay at home. Baby has to be fed 10 or 12 times a day. They will not use diapers because it is not something they use. It is not in their culture. They will have a white cloth they will tie around the baby like a napkin folded in the form of a panty. They will have them washed by hand and hung on a line all over their backyard. It is a very very common problem when there is a court case, the woman is unable to make it. It is very very common. Just that some people in the city of high rise cannot empathise with this because their perspective is very limited.

    So yes. These kind of laws can, and must change.
     
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