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Featured Death Penalty?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jacob Samuelson, Apr 8, 2020.

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  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am sorry, but you can keep your Mormon beliefs and I will keep mine. Where do you get the idea that Adam and his wife would never leave the garden? They were told to "fill the earth" with their offspring, not just the garden. God intended man to create his own paradise based on the blueprint he gave them with Eden. God planted that garden....humans would plant their own and keep working until the whole world looked like that Edenic paradise.

    This interchange is getting nowhere. There is no point to it. You have made your choice and so have I.

    All of the scriptures you provided have been addressed.....none of them mean what you think they do.

    I believe that the end times are upon us and that it is God who selects the ones who will be citizens in his incoming kingdom. These are the "sheep" and those who fail to"do the will of the Father" by teaching false doctrines and following false prophets, will suffer rejection, no matter how sincerely they believe that they are serving their "Lord". (Matthew 7:21-23)

    I believe that my future is here on earth, and you apparently are in going back to heaven where you came from.....there can be no reconciliation of our beliefs, they are completely opposed. Before my conception, I did not exist.

    You believe that Jesus is Yahweh, yet not once is he called by that name in the Bible. Yahweh is the "Most High" God of Israel which makes him the God of Jesus Christ. (Psalm 83:18; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12) It also makes him my God. If Yahweh is Jesus Christ, then who did he worship?

    You make a hero out of a villain. No thanks. You can keep all that. I have stated my beliefs and the scriptural reasons for them.

    I wish you well....but will not respond further on this thread.
     
  2. Jacob Samuelson

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    Romans 5:12 states Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    I'm not sure if your stating it's clear to support my statement or that it's clear to oppose it. I guess either way it's not clear in that respect. There is no question that Adam introduced sin in the world, and because of sin we are subject to a physical and spiritual death. God's plan was that sin would be introduced so that we can choose the good from the evil. If sin never existed, what good would the freedom of choice really be? Christ swallowed up both of those deaths. Physical through resurrection and spiritual by his atonement, which is what Paul is trying to get us to understand. Yet, for God to be Just, Adam would only be responsible for Adam. Adam had to repent for his sin, (Which he did) by facing the consequences of sin, just like we all do. God will correct us Hebrews 12:6, 9. Adam didn't cause all the suffering in the world. We did. Our sins did. Only in our obedience and faith in God can our suffering cease. God is fair. He would never put you as the scapegoat for someone else's sin. It was only Christ, who gave himself up, out of his and his Father's will to meet the demands of Justice whereby ALL men may be saved. For by men we are doomed, and by Christ we are saved. Thanks for the scripture.
     
  3. Jacob Samuelson

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    Thank you for you wishes, I really did enjoy researching the scriptures with you, it made my study a thought-provoking one. It is always good getting a different point of view to play off of. I see you do have much conviction and wisdom in your beliefs and I really did get a good view at your beliefs whether you thought I did or not. I wish nothing more for those who believe in something good, to first understand what they believe first and then to practice it. Mine is not a Mormon, or an Isaiah or a John belief. Mormon was simply a prophet who compiled the Book of Mormon, just as John compiled the New Testament and Isaiah possibly compiled the Old Testament. Mine will forever be a Christ belief. He is my Savior and Redeemer. To know who God and Christ is is Life eternal John 17:3. I hope I didn't offend you. May Jehovah's peace be with you.
     
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  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    To reason on this further: death results from sin, so God's purpose was that we grow old, sick, and die?

    No, I don't believe that. Jehovah God endowed us with the ability to make our own choices, choices that He doesn't always know ahead of time which side we'll take. Reference Abraham offering up Isaac @ Genesis 22. God told Abraham in vs.12, “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

    Did Jehovah God not know beforehand? No. Why? Because He chooses to respect us and dignify our ability using Free Will.

    There are other Biblical events which reveal that God chooses not to know how people will respond...the Ninevites in Jonah's day, for instance.

    I appreciate your kind demeanor. I wish you well...and safe through this Covid-19 pandemic.
     
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  5. The_Fisher_King

    The_Fisher_King Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
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    Ah, okay. That is a tricky one. I think we can only go on someone's intention and the effect of the act. If an adult with capacity and not being forced into it intended to kill a large number of innocent people and was successful in doing so, and all the evidence points to them having intended to do so and having done so, then I believe it is the responsibility of the judge to pronounce the death penalty on that person.
     
  6. Jacob Samuelson

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    It is a pleasure to discuss the things of God. As far as God's purposes are concerned growing old, sickness, and even death are irrelevant aren't they? Christ was introduced to end all of those eventually, which was His purpose. God's purpose was to introduce sin and death so that it could be overcome. Death and Sin were not overcome in the Garden, you cannot overcome something that doesn't exist in the first place. Do you believe in Christ's atonement? Do you know what it really means? Christ was the sacrificial Lamb preached in the old Testament Passover, and even alludes the scripture that you shared with Abraham. God was going to give up his only Begotten Son in the Flesh, a foreshadowing for what Abraham was instructed to do. Christ was the answer to all righteousness. That is interesting isn't it? ALL righteousness. Matthew 3:15. Fulfill all righteousness? What does that even mean? Why would Christ need to fulfill all righteousness? I mean wasn't all righteousness fulfilled in the Garden? Wouldn't it be better for Christ to say he would restore all righteousness as it was in the Garden? Christ wasn't needed to fulfill anything if Adam just did what he was told right? Yet, something was obviously missing. Something that need to be filled. Not replaced, not restored, just fulfilled. All of it. Something that hadn't or couldn't have happened before. Christ came here to finish something John 5:36. And that was his work. God's purpose was to send Christ. From the beginning he prepared the world for that. Everything in the Blble either alludes to or explains Christs coming or resurrection. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The First and the Last. If you understand the Bible, you would know.

    That is exactly right. I'm glad you understand that God will never force us to make a choice. He will command us, persuade us, and sometimes plead for us to make the choices He knows will be good for us, but he will never take away our will or free agency. His plan is to get all of his children to align their will with his so they can return to him again. What God knows exactly is the outcome of the choices we do make, good or evil. He knows the difference between good and evil, unlike Adam and Eve in the garden, because they were perfect creations. It was only after they ate the fruit that God stated in Genesis 3: 22-24 that Adam gained that ability as they did. Why would God leave that amazing power unprotected? If we state, that He was testing them and they failed, Why did God allow them to continue life and produce seed and teach them to worship Him, still leaving them with that power? He could of kicked them our without that power, kill them, erase their minds, start over again, He was all-powerful to do that. He could of but he didn't. Why? The only answer can be that he wanted them to. He wanted them to know good and evil. He wanted them to gain that power. He wanted them to experience a life away from paradise. Why? So they could learn experience. So they could utilize that new found power they possess and we possess. So we can choose the good over the evil as God mastered. We know that God is testing us to this day. That test didn't end with Adam and it certainly didn't end with Christ. But Christ and Adam were precious instruments to get us to 1. Be able to know good and evil and 2. To get us to use the example and atonement of Christ when we make mistakes. That is was God foresaw. That is what he wanted. Pain and suffering happens when we don't obey God's commandment. When we do, pain and suffering are easier to manage and can be completely wiped away with Christ. This is the Gospel of Christ.
     
  7. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Morality is very contextual. The executioner and the soldier commit murder but depending on which side you are on it is considered okay. Sex is morally okay as long as it is consensual. Some people include you must be married for it to be moral. Some people don't think sex before marriage is morally okay. But most people think rape is immoral.

    I think people who claim morality is absolute just want to dictate to others what they think morality should be.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    First of all, I agree: an eye for an eye, a life for a life. Justice means a penalty equal to the crime.

    However, that said, the death penalty should only be used in the gravest of situations, and only when the evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

    In other words, if you find 17 bodies of little kids buried in Joe's back yard, and he has a bloody torture chamber in his basement, this is not the time to show mercy, as the crime is severe, repetative, ongoing, and there is zero doubt of guilt.

    On the other hand, if Jim is accused of a drive by shooting, and there is no evidence but an eyewitness ID, and we all know how iffy eye witness memories can be, the odds of putting an innocent man to death are just too high.

    Also, there are cases of murders of passion where the death penalty may not be implicated. If Dave gets into a heated argument with his wife and shoves her so that she falls, and on the way down she hits her head on the corner of the coffee table and dies, he obviously did not mean to kill her. That's a long way from 17 bodies in the back yard.
     
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  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I see. So we are automatons, and not children. How then can he hold us morally responsible? It makes as much sense as spanking a computer program.
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    If an adult male has consensual sex with a 12 year old girl, is that okay?
    If a married man has consensual sex with his best friend's wife, is that okay?
    If a man marries six consenting women, is that okay?
    If a man downloads a thousand gig of hard porn from a consenting porn site, is that okay?
    If a teacher introduces children to consenting children, is that okay?

    One of the major things effected by all this consenting sex is the loss of children. Sounds
    almost contradictory. But the loss of children has lethal consequences for a society, but we
    aren't allowed to talk about that.
     
  11. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    It is against secular you law. Surely you can understand this.
     
  12. Jane Boswell

    Jane Boswell Member

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    Having read all of your peripheral tirades, none addresse the conspicuous culprit at hand. It is as obvious as daylight. Naming it by name gets you into a world of trouble, here and elsewhere.
    That indicates insecurity on many levels, in spite of Hiroshima (August 5).
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Great post. Add incest to the mix, too.
     
  14. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but we can change that, and given time, we will.
    The sexualization of children is an on-going thing. Taking children from their parent's
    control is becoming a thing (in some countries this is being introduced by gender
    dysphoria laws.) The age of sexual maturity is getting lower. Culturally many kids
    are having sex at a younger age.
    Etc, etc, etc..
     
  15. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I am against the death penalty because:
    1. It is irreversible in the event of a mistake.
    2. We have an imperfect justice system.
    3. In the event of the correct person being convicted, death ends punishment.
     
    #75 Milton Platt, Apr 14, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    “So we are automatons....”
    What?! You misread apparently
    I jsaid that we were created “with the ability to make our own choices”,
    the very opposite of automaton.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Apparently so. My apologies.
     
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