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Featured Death Penalty?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jacob Samuelson, Apr 8, 2020.

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  1. Jacob Samuelson

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    There are instances in the Scriptures (Bible, Quran, many others) where followers of God are commanded to utilize the 'death penalty' as a form of almost Godly punishment. I understand that in the end, the world is to be cleansed of all unrighteousness in order to bring to pass a utopia of peace or what is understood better as heaven, and God is that ultimate judge, yet my question is what benefit has the 'death penalty' brought those in the scriptures? I refer to the massacres or conquests of land produced by Jews and Muslims as a commandment of their God? I haven't seen an instance where this lead to anything good as these same sects are fighting to this day because of wrongs they have caused others. It is written in Mosaic law that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Christ attempted to end this seemingly misinterpreted scripture when he said to love those who hate you and do good to those who despitefully use you. Today, there are several places that believe in the death penalty as a form of punishment for heinous crimes, possibly most due to expenses. I don't believe life should be just thrown away by human judgement or expenses as anyone can change their life and start new as we read in many instances in the Bible. How would you justify the Death Penalty?
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Not really. If you take a quote from some places in the books of the bible you can assume its commanding you to kill, but its not. Some of the books tells stories that illustrate problems. For example Cain is 'The first murderer', and you'd think that he should be killed for it. He's clearly not supposed to murder, but instead he is not killed. There's a reason for that; and if Cain isn't to be killed then...what does that imply? It is merely one small part of a large body of work which is against killing.

    The literature in the Bible, unlike the Quran, is actually composed of many different kinds of writings from vastly different time periods. They are not strictly fiction/nonfiction/romance/adventure like modern books are. Many of the terms used such as 'Death' can have meanings other than those used in English translations. Context reveals this such as Paul's famous statements "To live is Christ." or Jesus statement "Dead in sin." In fact you can't be certain, unless you are an expert in the language and culture, whether or not the stories about death penalty actually refers to physical killing. Some commentaries suggest it refers to expulsion from the community, and there are some reasons to think this is true. The most literal and central commandment says not to kill. It says very plainly "Thou shalt not kill" and cannot be taken as anything but a command; so this conflicts with anything which suggests killing. It makes it difficult and debatable to determine what is being said in bible verses.

    The Quran, on the other hand, is a single book; supplemented by many other writings. Everything in the Quran is supposed to be the work of one author.

    No, not cleansed in a bloodbath if you're suggesting that. If killing could have cleansed the Earth then it would be so clean now. Anyone can kill, and in most parts of the bible killing is a problem not a solution. I recall a passage in Revelation where Jesus sword is in his mouth and another that says the saints prevail through patience, through testimony, through the blood of the lamb ( a symbol ) and through not valuing their own lives. There's to be no 'Cleansing' by means of killing. Anyone who says otherwise you should consider beneath your attention.
     
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  3. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The history of being sacrificed and metallic irradiated, owns a male experience first and foremost...seeing he was involved as a group to agree to apply science by conditions of human thoughts and human ideas.

    And first he was origin to self, very spiritual, holy and an innocent spiritual self.

    His choice was evil in fact of human history....and when he applied science he changed the interaction of Earth with the Sun...by heating up spatial cold gas history and making it burn.

    Just to do science conversion of the physical mass of God or SION on Earth.

    So he lived through an experience which is likened to being chemically drugged involved in metal radiation phenomena.

    As the ground life is natural and it all got burnt...then strange images formed in the Earth cooling of its gases.....so a false feedback of unnatural stories began to emerge as VISIONS. Where all the fake stories were first witnessed and seen in the radiation attack.

    Radiation burning of the brain chemicals changes how you feel and express the mind, and the mind put into contact with strange stories and strange feed back and the human experience of being metallic pierced with radiation mass is how the evilness of the life of humans developed.

    And it is of artificial causes...and caused by science.

    As the human life is naturally innocent and spiritual who is any scientist today to claim that the human should be harmed again. When they should be spiritual, they should be healthy, they should be loving and kind and caring.

    And the male choice of doing science took that spirituality away from his own self.

    Therefore whenever radiation burning stone/hot gas attacked Earth, the mind and spirit of the human male was changed...as he depends on a natural light and natural cooling effect of holy water to live spiritually.

    And all conditions of wrong choices began with the choice to do science/conversion and change Earth's natural radiation balances.

    Humans have suffered enough torment and wrongdoings to their natural life.

    Prison was once defined to be the place where a human could be healed and in learning, and structured spiritual conditions, such as meditation and use of the sound therapies once structured in Temples and the Churches, being taught to retrain the mind/brain by constant prayer was real and true to self healing.

    And prayer was not the reading of scientific journals. Therefore to heal the life of what science harmed, we need to be specific about what is taught to our life, for as adults we teach our children what they should believe.

    Science is a totally destructive language, and therefore should not be taught as a holy document.

    Only loving caring meditative prayer, owning a reason to be taught, because we are all as humans holy beings is the correct answer for everyone.
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Scriptures seem to indicate that when anyone is murdered (think Abel killed by Cain) then their blood cries out for vengeance from the ground. This voice can't be silenced until vengeance comes. This is why God told Noah's descendants they should put murderers (and even animals that kill people) to death for it. This would insure that the vengeance of God would not come down on the entire land.

    Moses even instructed the children of Israel to pray a certain prayer when they found someone murdered in their land but they couldn't figure out who did it. They would pray this prayer and they would tell God that they don't know who did it and they had no part in it. This was to make sure God would not send vengeance on the land for it. So, I take it seriously ... we don't want innocent blood on our hands which is what I believe happens if we don't administer justice for murders committed.

    So essentially, by putting murderers to death we are saving the whole land from vengeance for the innocent blood.

    That being said; due to these corrupt times we live in; we can hardly trust the current court system to properly execute the law. That means we don't know for sure they are even arresting the right people for crimes committed. So, as long as there is reasonable doubt we should not execute someone. I'd rather keep guilty people alive; than kill innocent people.
     
  5. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Which is stated to be an oxymoron.

    Being the question that all victims have always challenged spirituality upon.

    Why were we harmed as some form of human entitled justice about God preaching?

    When natural history says, we live on a planet that naturally shifts its own body, as a reactive O body. The Earth. So naturally God at any time can cause harm to our life, just because we live upon a planet.

    Science however took natural causes beyond that circumstance claiming that it was justified to have human life removed in a science reaction, rather than allow life to be constantly punished for living on the Planet.

    How it came about that males as a peer group agreement said that they should remove the physical body of God the planet, so that life upon it would no longer suffer due to being trapped as a prisoner in life.

    What peer group mentality is about. To reason and excuse self for committing evil acts with a self purpose.

    Therefore the judgement of a spiritual self said to the scientist and any cult affected human choice, if you did science and irradiated us, just because you did not want own life on Earth, then you had a human choice. To stop having sex.

    How the introduction of male groups disclaiming the sexual experience was Holy.

    To then say to the humans who believed in personal harm of a brother or a sister to be forced to be a prisoner, as based on original choice, and original SIN thoughts...as the lawful agreement, what you infer, you should then inherit for self.

    Why Galileo was put in jail and not murdered.
     
  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Not only due to corruption, even honest well intentioned people make mistakes.
     
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  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Thankfully, the higher Indian law system based on the British model is working quite satisfactorily in India. We have ample safe-guards for mistakes, and when they give death punishment to a person, I do not have any doubts about it. My only complaint is that they don't do it as frequently as they should. I think swindling of public money in my poor country should also merit death penalty.
     
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  8. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    (Gen. 9:6)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In the Bible, the death penalty was implemented in Israel for certain crimes and those found guilty were tried and convicted on the basis of evidence and the testimony of witnesses. Someone who committed manslaughter (unintentional death) still had to atone for a life lost, but the death penalty was not implemented. There were several cities of refuge where the accidental manslayer could find safety until the death of the High Priest. After which time the offender could go free.

    Where do you get the "utopia of peace" being heaven? In order to fulfill Isaiah 55:11, God will finish what he started in Eden. He designed humans to live on earth forever.....there was never even a suggestion of going to heaven until the Messiah came in the first century. The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife because they believed that "sheol" (the common grave of mankind) would hold them until Messiah established his Kingdom on earth, and then call all the dead from their graves. Jesus confirmed this. (John 5:28-29)

    The benefit was that the sin committed (usually murder) was atoned for with a life taken for the crime committed, and the assurance that the perpetrator (especially a violent person) would never re-offend. Knowing that the death penalty could be enforced also acted as a deterrent.

    The only time that God's nation was used as his executioners in evicting wicked people out of the Promised Land, was after their wandering in the wilderness for 40 years following their liberation from Egypt. The Canaanites who occupied that land were gross offenders and Israel was to dispatch them because of their depraved practices.

    After that, it was when nations who were eyeing off that good land and wanting to grab it by force, saw God back up the Jewish nation to defend their borders, and to prove superior to that invading nation's gods.

    The setting is important to note here. When the nation of Israel were occupants of their own land, they were also under God's Law and he had appointed judges and authorized them to carry out any penalties where those laws were broken.

    The Diaspora, (dispersion of the Jews) arose because the Jews were exiled from their homeland by conquering nations—first by the Assyrians, in 740 B.C.E., then by the Babylonians, in 607 B.C.E. Only a remnant of the exiles ever returned to Israel. (Isaiah 10:21-22) The rest remained scattered.....so by the fifth century B.C.E., Jewish communities were found in the 127 jurisdictional districts of the Persian Empire.

    When Jesus walked the earth the Jews in Jerusalem were under Roman law, which is why the religious leaders needed the assistance of Rome to execute Jesus. They were not authorized to execute anyone.

    Nations rule by God's permission but they do not necessarily rule by his laws. They have their own. Some do have the death penalty and that is their right. (Romans 13:1-4) If you know the law before you break it, there is no real excuse. The penalty must be paid unless there is clemency at the ruler's discretion. The law doesn't care why you broke it.

    No one could in today's world. The judicial system is hardly concerned with justice.....it is more concerned with law....and lawyers making vast amounts of money by winning cases.....no real concern about whether their clients are guilty or not.

    At the end of this system of things, only Jesus has authority to carry out the death penalty. His justice is perfect, so we need have no concerns about injustice.
     
  10. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't. It seems to be ineffective as a deterrent and there is no way to redress any miscarriage of justice. Most civilised countries have given it up.
     
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  11. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Of course the justice system cares about why a person has broken a law. Many laws have exceptions that makes it so it's okay to "break the law" under certain circumstances. It's aslo very important for the application of the sentence. A man who kills his wife to get insurrance money is going to be punished more severely than a man, who in an excess of rage, killed his wife. Modern justice system have numerous degree that more ancient system didn't always had.
     
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  12. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    I don't think it can be justified. WWJD? Not kill.
     
  13. Jacob Samuelson

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    I appreciate you mentioning that prayer was involved in this process. I agree that God is the ultimate judge of character. Yet, I still wonder if He placed the law for that reason. Innocent blood is for sure something society has to avoid, yet is the act of simply killing off all the murderers the solution we or even God is looking for. Suppose we somehow did, wouldn't that leave us as a society of murderer-killers in the end. Perhaps the end justifies the means, but it is my experience as a student of history that death brings more death. Jesus taught if we live by the sword we will die by it as well. It's easy to say that if we would have just assassinated someone like Hitler, we would have peace in the world. Yet even with Hitler doing the job for us, we still don't quite see the light of day it seems. Hate still exist and whoever's in charge of that hate cant be simply killed it seems, someone or something will just take its place don't you think?
     
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  14. Jacob Samuelson

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    Hey Deeje! Thanks for your thoughts! Actually ancient Jews were very divided in the theology of resurrection and afterlife. The saducces and the pharisees were a product of that difference who have debated with Christ many times on the subject. These divisions came from interpretations of the old testament. See Job 14: 14 and 1 Samuel 2:6 Job 19:26 Matthew 22:23 The realization of resurrection was only established at Christs resurrection as well as the handful of others. Matt 27:52. The part were spirits enter a post mortal state comes from scriptual sources as well as many modern sources of post death experiences that people have encountered. Luke 23: 42-43 Luke 16:22 Upon death there is a waiting period which Christ refers to as a paradise or prison 1st Peter 3:18-19. We can discuss this more as there are much more examples of what happened during the three days Christ mortality was buried.
    For now back to the main subject.
    Historically speaking also an interesting tidbit was The Jews were very much authorized to execute anyone under their own laws. Normally it was done by being stoned to death. Any blasphemous crime or fortification was dealt with swiftly without any or with little Roman intervention. We saw this in the case of the adulterous woman Jesus protected in John 8:7 Pilate was very taken back when the Sanhedrin, or Jewish council presented this case for him. He most likely tried to shrug it off saying this was a Jewish affair that should have been handled by the Jews in their way. However, as mentioned in the scripture, they were afraid of creating an uproar in their community during the holy event of passover. They wanted Rome to handle it to remove the tension of an uprisal which most likely would have occured given Jesus' popularity. Because Rome was executing using the Roman method of crucifixion, no one could point fingers to the hysterical Jewish leadership. There are fascinating parallels where scripture and prophecy came together at this moment. The biggest of which is the lamb during passover which was presented having no bone broken. The tradition that Jews have held for millennia where they would sacrifice a lamb to redeem themselves of their sins now was before their eyes. Had they killed Christ with stone they would have broken his bones doing so. The cross in where he was lifted up was all part of a larger millennia old plan to begin with. John 19:36.

    For me this shows that God has prepared this event long before we could even understand. He is the Alpha and Omega. Deeje he is not a plan B type of God. The atonement had to have happened not just because his once perfect creation became imperfect cause of some fruit, bit because he has willed it to happen from the start. He is the master planner.
     
  15. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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  16. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    On the face of it a rather trite observation. After all, if an act is connected to some higher purpose, it cannot be described as "wanton".
     
  17. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    maybe the meme maker ought to have bolded the word "think".
    kind of key to unraveling the meaning of the meme i thinko_O
     
  18. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    (Gen. 9:6) is God's solution.

    When we are obeying God in executing murderers, we are not murderers.

    Living by the sword and dying by the sword has nothing to do with the death penalty.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus said when a women was sentenced to stoning "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone". He also emphasized "forgiveness" and "mercy", as did the prophets.

    In today's world, with prisons and jails, the death penalty is unnecessary and brutal, especially since people can repent, which is a hallmark teaching in Christianity. Therefore, the death penalty is certainly not in any way pro-life but is just a excuse for revenge. States that have the death penalty actually have a slightly higher homicide rate than those that don't, thus we know it really does not have a deterrent effect that goes beyond imprisonment itself.

    At this point in time, it is unnecessarily brutal, and certainly not a response that respects life. As Gandhi said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will only make the world blind and toothless. Prior to the creation of Israel and Judah, there were no prisons, so the death penalty had a purpose, but that's not the situation today.

    So, I guess the question is "Are we going to be pro-life or are we just going to pretend we are?".
     
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  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I have understood, if God wants to kill, it is to get rid of an unrighteous person. So, the benefit obviously is the that the unrighteous person does not exist anymore and does not cause more unrighteousness.
     
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