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Featured Death in religions

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Jimmy, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I have defined it. It is 'spirit'. Yes, it is something conscious and alive that returns to God. (2 Cor. 5:8)

    I don't believe Solomon wrote while he was still faithful, prior to his turning away. (Ecc. 1:12) "I was king" He may well have gotten back to the Lord but already his life would have the scars of the disobedience he committed.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  2. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    You might be right. After the attack on Pearl Harbor the Americans gave full military
    honors to the fallen Japanese.
    The Japanese knew they were doing the Right Thing.
    And the Americans who hit back knew they were doing the Right Thing.

    And usually, people who kill other people just know they are doing the
    Right Thing. Just visit your local prison and talk to the inmates - they
    are full of righteous anger at their predicament.

    Getting even, settling scores, taking what ought to be yours in the
    first place, putting people in their place and so on are all behaviors
    of people doing "virtuous actions."

    The problem is that virtue isn't defined. And philosophers like Derrida
    and Foucault haven't made it easier.

    I am speaking about the Gospels here. Without a Standard of conduct
    (as in the Example of Christ) then the standard you set is your own.
    Modern philosophy says there is none higher than yourself and there
    is no absolute truth - whatever you do can be considered virtuous.
     
  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think you are referring to outdated philosophy, see this article here for a more up to date understanding.
    Evolution and Functionally Objective Morality - The Gemsbok
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    "Outdated" ???
    You mean, people no longer attack and bite each other?
    "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" isn't what I am referring to.
    The example of Japan and America contesting Asia Pacific is what
    I mean by a morality based upon loyalty to your own nation and
    culture. Both sides believed they were right, and Japan rightly saw
    America as having robbed them of true victory of their Russian
    enemy, and was challenging their rise as an Asian power.

    I use this example to show that in conflict, any conflict, even
    between a man and his wife - both sides take the high moral
    ground. Without an independent moral frame of reference, appealing
    to something higher than yourself, you are capable of doing anything
    in the name of "being good."
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you believe that 2 Corinthians applies to all Christians? I don't...for the following reasons....
    Those who are chosen to rule with Christ as kings and priests, (Revelation 20:6) are resurrected with a spirit body as Christ was, because "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom".

    1 Corinthians 15:50-54....
    "50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

    So when will those of the "heavenly calling" become reunited with their Lord? (Hebrews 3:1) When is "the last trumpet"?

    Paul answers again...
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.....
    "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

    The resurrection even of 'the elect' had to wait until Christ's return....until that time, all would "sleep in death". That being the case, no spirit, alive and conscious goes anywhere. In Ecclesiastes, Solomon was relating Jewish belief regarding the dead....'they are conscious of nothing at all'....not capable of 'thought, planning or wisdom'...nor even any emotions....even their love is gone. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)

    Belief in an immortal spirit or soul that survives death is not scriptural. No afterlife of any description immediately after death is taught in the OT. It is a pagan, Platonic Greek notion that was adopted by both Judaism and Christianity when they became apostate. It does nothing but support the devil's first lie..."you surely will not die"....and it negates the whole idea of the resurrection as Christ taught it. He calls ALL the dead from their graves after he begins ruling the earth. (John 5:28-29) Even when he raised his friend Lazarus, he said that he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)

    'The elect' in their graves do not go ahead of the ones who are alive when Christ returns.

    Eccl 1:12...?
    " I, the Preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem."

    Please see Strongs concordance for how this expression is used in other parts of the Bible.


    Genesis 1:1 (NASB)


    There is no record of Solomon regaining his standing with God before his death, but in his burial place, he is still among his forefathers.

    This is what I believe the scriptures teach.
     
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  6. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I believe it pertains to all Christians.

    There are different resurrections in the Bible. Resurrection pertains to the body not the spirit. No matter when the resurrection takes place, it is reuniting the spirit with it's body. The believers spirit has gone to be with the Lord. The unbeliever's spirit has gone to hades, a place of torment. (Luke 16:19-31)

    That Solomon wrote after he was King, which meant after his turning away from God, is my point. This is why I said even if he restored his relationship with God, he would still bear the scars of that backsliding. All of which goes back to your statement that God would not use an unfaithful man to write His Scripture.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There are just two. A "first resurrection" for those chosen to rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and a general resurrection of the dead performed by Jesus after he takes over rulership of this earth. (John 5:28-29) Only those of the first resurrection go to heaven. As kings they will have earthly subjects....and as priests, they will take fallen humanity back to reconciliation with God.

    Where do people get the idea that the spirit is anything but the breath that animates a body. Our breath has no personality. It is the soul that has personality and the soul is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)
    The scriptures do not support any immediate life after death. All "sleep" until Christ's return....as Paul,said.

    You really think that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal? Parables are stories with a moral, principal or example. Taken literally, this one would be ridiculous.

    Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Does that mean that those in heaven can see and hear the suffering of those in hell? Sounds like a lovely situation.
    Would a drop of water on someone's finger really cool the tongue of someone in a burning fire?

    It was an illustration about the self-righteous Pharisees and the lost sheep to whom Jesus was sent. Once in "the bosom of Abraham", (a position of favor with God) the Jewish leaders lost their standing with God and were replaced by the lowly ones who followed Jesus. They changed places.

    Hades is not a place of torment....it is a place of rest.
    "Hades" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol" that Solomon used in Ecclesiastes 9:5,10. It is not a place of consciousness.....

    Where did Jesus say that his friend Lazarus was before he raised him? (John 11:11-14)

    Your responses so far have not answered any of my questions. Do you have no answers?

    When is the last trumpet and when are the elect reunited with their Lord? What does Paul say about that?
     
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  8. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    First of all, there are not just two resurrections. The resurrection of life is one, and the resurrection of death is one. (John 5:28-29) These are also called the first resurrection and the resurrection of the second death, or second resurrection. (Rev. 20:6) The terms first and second describe the resurrections in an ordinal fashion. Not a cardinal. Whenever resurrections take place, they are either of the first or second resurrection.

    1.) A resurrection occurred after Christ's death on the Cross. (Matt. 27:51-53) "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went unto the holy city,and appeared unto many.

    This was a partial resurrection as it says 'many'. This shows that resurrection speaks to the body sleeping, not the spirit. Just like (Ecc. 12:7) indicated. The body goes back to dust the spirit goes back to God who gave it. Just like Paul said, (2 Cor. 5:8), "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord:"

    2.) Jesus Christ rose from the dead. (John 20:9-16)

    3.) The resurrection of the Church. (1 Thess. 4:14-17) Note that those that 'sleep in Jesus' are coming with Him. (14) Thus their spirits are with Him already, and they are getting their bodies back. This occurs prior to the Tribulation.

    4.) A partial resurrection of Israelites. (Dan. 12:1-3) "...And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt...." (2) This occurs prior to the Millennial kingdom. "...and at that time thy people shall be delivered....."(1)

    5.) The resurrection of the Tribulation saints. (Rev. 20:4-6) This occurs prior to the Millennium.

    6.) The resurrection of all the unbelievers at the Great White Throne. (Rev. 20:5, 11-15) This occurs at the end of the Millennium.

    All of these resurrections are either part of the first or second resurrection.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  9. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Yes I believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a true story. (Luke 16:19-31) There is nothing to indicate it is a parable. And a proper name is used for Lazarus.

    Hades, or Sheol is the name of the underworld. where both the non-believers and believers went prior to the Cross. It was divided into two sections, one called the place of Abraham's bosom, (Luke 16:22) The other side was a place of torment. (23) Once the sins were dealt with by the Blood of Christ, Christ emptied the side which held the believers. (Eph. 4:8) The non-believers are still in the torment section awaiting their resurrection at the Great White Throne.

    Concerning Lazarus the friend of Jesus, you gave the verses. Why ask me. I agree with the verses you gave.

    The last trump is when the Rapture of the Church takes place. (1 Cor. 15:51-53)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In an overview of death and resurrection, you first have to understand why death occurs (when it was never supposed to) and why Jesus came to conquer this "last enemy".....and eventually how it is eliminated from the human experience altogether. (Revelation 21:2-4) How do you see this?

    In John 5:28-29, Jesus said that 'all those in the memorial tombs would come forth either to a resurrection of life or to a resurrection of judgment'. Since the account says that those whose bodies came out of their tombs were “saints” or “holy ones,” they would have been raised to a resurrection of life. So...were they? If that was the case , then they would still be living today, even as Jesus has kept on living since his resurrection to life. But there is no mention of them in any other scripture.

    It is apparent to me that mention of this event was of little significance since none of the other gospels speak of it. Would such an amazing event be absent from all the gospels? Wouldn't it be more apparent that this ambiguous verse means that the earthquake simply exposed bodies in a cemetery as they have done in other earthquake events? Maybe it was the people who witnessed this that went and reported it. It is certainly not something to get excited about.

    At 1 Corinthians 15:20, it says that "Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.” “He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.” These holy ones, therefore, could not have been resurrected with the prospect of endless life before Jesus, who was not resurrected until 3 days after his execution. Your version of events does not fit the Biblical narrative.

    Where will I find mention of a "partial resurrection" in the Bible?

    Resurrections were performed before Jesus offered his life. He performed a few himself.....So how is Jesus "firstborn from the dead"? Where are those whom Jesus and his apostles resurrected? Like Lazarus, they all died again. Why?

    What was Paul talking about in 2 Corinthians 5:8? He was expressing the desire of all those chosen to receive the "first resurrection".....they expected their Lord to return as he promised, to take them "home".....in your belief system, has Jesus returned yet? If he hasn't then the resurrection has not begun.

    Yes, he was the very first human raised to spirit life....but he was not to be the only one....his elect were to follow later. He is the "firstborn from the dead" only for those with "the heavenly calling". They are born of the flesh but are raised in the spirit as he was. (Romans 6:5)

    Who are "the church"? Those who come with Christ and his angels when he sits in judgment on this earth's inhabitants, will start with "the house of God".....with so called "Christians" (1 Peter 4:16-18) And according to Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus is not impressed with "many" who claim him as their "Lord". He has already stated that those on the road to life will be "few", (Matthew 7:13-14) so there are going to be "many" who identify as Christians who will not make the cut. So who are "doing the will of the Father" at that time? Claiming to be a Christian obviously doesn't make you one.
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    According to Jesus, fleshly Israel was "abandoned" as serial covenant breakers. (Matthew 23:37-39) As soon as God had sent his Christ into the world to rescue obedient mankind, his part of the covenant was fulfilled. As those who relentlessly ignored God's counsel and his laws, even becoming complicit in Jesus' murder, he said.....
    "Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

    For almost 2,000 years, the Jews have never acknowledged Jesus as the one who came in the name of his Father.....they even refused to utter his name. Only those Jews who accepted Christ and are chosen by God for positions in the Kingdom, will see life in heaven. The majority of the elect are Gentiles for that reason.....these are called "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) which include Jewish and Gentile disciples of Jesus.....so natural Israel no longer figures in God's purpose. They lost their place because of their constant disobedience and were replaced by a new spiritual nation...."a people for his name". (Acts 15:14) This is the subject of Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. All of the first Christians were Jews....every book of the Bible was written by Jews. But as a fleshly nation, they committed spiritual suicide and were replaced in God's affections by those who were humble and accepted the truth Jesus taught, "like young children".. Isn't it obvious? Read all of Matthew 23.

    Since Paul says that those who "sleep" will all be raised at Christ's return, the "first resurrection" takes place at that time. Those alive at that time, will still be part of the "first resurrection" because no one was raised before then, according to Paul. No spirits or souls went to heaven.

    Since Jesus will raise both the "righteous" and the "unrighteous" at the same time and from the same place.....this is the second or general resurrection of the dead. They are called from their graves because they are all still in them. The grave is simply the place where all the dead "sleep". God does not require a single molecule of any person in order to bring them back to life. Revelation 20 speaks of 'the sea giving up its dead'. So the sea is also a grave, like hades and Sheol.

    The righteous do not have to prove their loyalty to God since they died faithful, but the unrighteous who died without knowledge of God or his Christ, will have opportunity to learn and to comply with his laws during Christ's millennial reign.
    Jesus' sacrifice covers their sins too because they were committed in ignorance. Any who die alienated from God at the time of the tribulation will not see life again. Their death will be permanent. This "time of the end" is a judgment period.....a time for life and death decisions, like the days of Noah. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    The 'dead' judged before 'the great white throne' are the unrighteous who were raised to a "resurrection of judgment". This is where they pass their test to continue living....or not.

    So, I still see just two resurrections.....and a very uncomplicated story of redemption. What God purposed in the beginning, he delivers to mankind at the end, solving the problems associated with abuse of free will in the process. All will go back to square one. (Isaiah 55:11)
     
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  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    A whole lot of abracadabra.
     
  13. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Jesus was a spiritual teacher (enlighten one) who taught people how to become enlighten within the path Jesus was teaching.
    So even his teaching is still around Jesus himself is not(in physical body anyway)
     
  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Did you even bother to read the link?

    Your example is bogus as the US had a higher power (in God we trust) and yet it still committed whatsoever you were ascribing to it. So even appealing to something higher than oneself it would seem possible to get misguided enough to be capable of doing anything in the name of “being good”.
     
  15. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Death is separation. Man is body, soul, and spirit. Physical death is separation of the body from the soul/spirit. Spiritual death is separation of the soul/spirit from God. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died. (Gen. 2:17) The spiritual death was immediate, and death began working in their bodies resulting later in their complete separation from their sou/spirit. In the new heaven and earth, God says there will be no more death. (Rev. 21:4)

    I do not discount anything in any of the Gospels on the basis that it is not found in any other Gospel. Every Gospel has it's purpose which is why you will find somethings in one Gospel that are not in another. So yes, I believe it was a partial resurrection of saints. And though we are not told, it would mean they have ascended with Christ back to heaven. There is no problem with the order of this event. The earthquake occurred immediately upon Christ's death. (Matt. 27:52,54) But the saints were not raised until after Christ's resurrection. (27:53) Thus a partial resurrection.

    I don't believe that the people brought back to life by Jesus or the apostles is a resurrection. They were simply brought back to life with that body they had.

    Pauls statement in (2 Cor. 5:8) is a 'therefore' statement. Because of what has been said in (5:5) concerning us having been given the earnestness of the Spirit, Paul says in (5:8) "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." In (2 Cor. 4:18) he made the distinction between the things seen, and those not seen. Things temporal and things eternal. We believers look forward to our new bodies. (5:1-4). But we have been given the Spirit of God. (5:5). Though we have the Spirit of God, we are absent from the Lord. (5:6) Why? Because we still have our temporal body. To be absent from this temporal body is to be present with the Lord. (5:8)

    We get our bodies back at the resurrection. But our spirit is with the Lord when we die. Our resurrection has not yet begun. That doesn't mean we are not alive with the Lord when we die. Jesus has not returned yet. That doesn't mean when we die we are not alive with Christ. It doesn't mean the saints who were resurrected after Christ's resurrection were not resurrected. (Matt 27:52-53).

    The Church are those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and as a result have been born-again.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  16. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Yes Israel rejected Jesus Christ and has been rejected by God. And she has been under the judgement of God ever since. But God is not finished with Israel. He will be faithful to His promises to her. (Rom. 11:25) "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentles be come in." As it implies also in the verse you gave, (Matt. 23:39) "...till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

    Give me the verse you allude concerning what Paul said. As I have said, the first resurrection speaks to that of all believers, no matter when the certain resurrections occur. There are two classifications of resurrection. One of life, and one of death.

    The righteous and unrighteous are not raised at the same time. In the resurrections spoken of in (Rev. 20:4-6) there is a thousand year difference. (20:5)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I suppose Germany trusted in God too. Like America, sort of.
    But the higher morality I speak of doesn't fight at all. People
    appeal to Christian ethics in warfare, but there's thin gruel in
    the New Testament for this behavior.
     
  18. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    We enter the life cycle called (Barzakh ) until the day of resurrection that God will end the universe, here ends the life of the Barzakh to re-composition of the creation again in preparation for the Day of Resurrection, the day of payment of dues

    In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says that there is a seed in the lower back of the spine

    That is do not perish

    Imgur

    it call the Primary Organis which is Coccyx "or sacred bone as a plant seed

    On the Day of Judgment God will bring all the grounds together Then GOD makes it like flat bread by his hand
    Means suns, moons and planets Meteors and cosmic dust together and makes them one earth

    God will rain this land forty years

    God will re-create creatures like the legumes plant
    Animals and humans grow like plants

    they will hold them accountable for what they have done in their lives, such as a YouTube video that shows them what happened to them

    Even animals as an example if the lamb has butting other lamb
    The lamb that has butted, will butting the other. To justice

    all human will be 33 years old
     
  19. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say God will reign 40 years?
     
  20. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    rain not reign

    This is in talking about the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him

    I'll give you the link and talk and you'll literal translation
    Google translator specializing in Arabic language
    Arabic grammar is complicated

    حديث

    يُنفخُ في الصورِ والصورُ كهيئةِ القَرنِ فيُصعَقُ من في السَّماواتِ ومن في الأرضِ وبين النفختَين أربعينَ عامًا ويمطِرُ اللهُ في تلك الأربعينَ مطرًا فينبُتونَ من الأرضِ كما ينبُتُ البَقْلُ ومن الإنسانِ عظمٌ لا تأكلُه الأرضُ عَجْبُ ذنَبِه وفيه يركَّبُ الجسَدُ خلقهُ يومَ القيامةِ ، قال : ثمَّ ذكر البعثَ وذكر الحسابَ فيوضعُ الصِّراطُ ويتمثَّلُ لهم ربُّهم فيقالُ : لتنطلقْ كلُّ أمةٍ إلى ما كانت تعبدُ حتَّى إذا بَقِيَ المسلمونَ قيل لهم : ألا تذهبونَ قد ذهب النَّاسُ فيقولون : حتَّى يأتيَ ربُّنا فيقولُ : من ربُّكم فيقولونَ : ربُّنا اللهُ لا شريكَ له فيقالُ : هل تعرِفونَ ربَّكم إذا رأيتموهُ ؟ فيقولون : إذا تعرَّف لنا عرفناهُ فيقولُ : أنا ربُّكم ، فيقولونَ : نعوذُ باللهِ منك فيكشفُ لهم عن ساقٍ فيقعونَ له سُجَّدًا ويجسُرُ أصلابُ المنافقينَ ولا يستطيعونَ سجودًا فذلك قوله : { يَوْمَ يُكْشَفُ عَنْ سَاقٍ وَيُدْعَوْنَ إِلَى السُّجُودِ فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ } [ القلم : 42 ] ثمَّ ينطلقُ ويتبعُ أثرهُ وهو على الصِّراطِ حتَّى يجوزوا على النارِ فإذا جازوا فكُّل خزَنةِ الجنةِ يدعوه يا مسلمُ ها هنا خيرٌ لك ، فقال أبو بكرٍ : من ذلك المسلمُ يا رسولَ اللهِ ؟ قال : إني لأطمعُ أنْ تكونَ أحدهُم
    الراوي:أبو هريرة المحدث:ابن منده المصدر:الإيمان لابن منده الجزء أو الصفحة:301 حكم المحدث:مقبول رواته مشاهير
     
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