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Featured Dealing with embarrassing passages in the Bible

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Oct 14, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So first she was just a slave that was raped.
    Then it was a "possible marital rape".
    Now its an illegitimate forced marriage.

    Anything else?
     
  2. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Just sum it up as immoral oppression.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So the fourth one "Immoral Oppression".

    So far you have brought in 4 different arguments to demonise Abraham and Sarai as rapists etc etc, based on her having been a slave, who married Abraham and had a baby. Nice.
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, not a fourth one. A summation. You do know the difference don't you?
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Ah a summation. So bottomline is that by hook or by crook you want to impose oppression into the character of Abraham as depicted in the Bible. There is no other motivation for you, so even though the text does not say they raped that girl, or anything the sort, you want it to be rape no matter what. How ever you wish to do it, you will impose it. Even if there no evidence whatsoever. Causal fallacy.
     
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  6. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Note that Hagar was not of the sort of slaves that feared running away from their masters, seeing as she eventually did this. And yet, this only happened as a reaction to what Sarah did to her. Not to being "raped" by Abraham as you seem to hold.

    Also, I don't know if this holds any water by you, but Rashi says that the term "לקחה" (Lekacha, took her) means that Sarah worked to convince her to marry Abraham, i.e., she was not forced to marry him.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Wouldn't have marrying Abraham been incentive enough, because it would have benefitted Hagar to do this? The term describing her condition changes, iirc.
     
  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    That's a good question. Rashi wrote:
    "ותקח שרי AND (SARAI TOOK [HAGAR] — She took (won her over) by kindly speech saying, “Happy are you in that you will be privileged to consort with so holy a person as this” (Genesis Rabbah 45:3)."​
    It would suggest that Hagar did not want to marry Abraham for some reason, though I'm not sure what that reason is.
     
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  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    @Rival I'll see if I can find an explanation.
     
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  10. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    It is a good point, but she was purchased.

    There is an absence of focus on much of what women thought, felt or cared about in the early parts of the Bible. That is sort of telling about how women were regarded as citizens. We know of Noah and his sons, but their wives didn't even rate being named in the Bible.
     
  11. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I sort of find your interpretation horrifying in part.

    What is it that you consider to be horrible treatment of someone that you have purchased beyond the objectification of being purchased? There seems no way that a slave would have a choice in the matter of becoming a sex toy.

    Rape doesn't require physical force or violence to be rape. You merely have to have sex with someone against their will. If she really didn't want it, it was rape. Since she was owned as property and mindset of ownership is that you can do what you want with your property. There is no consideration of the value of that property as a person from the start of the owner/slave relationship.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I'm not really sure I like the insinuation that the man called a Friend of G-d and who perpetuated monotheism is being called a rapist. If you truly believe Abraham is a rapist, then I recommend you just toss out the whole Tanakh, because otherwise you're suggesting G-d approves of this.
     
  13. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I just now noticed this is in the "Same Faith Discussion" section. My apologies for posting if it is against the rules.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Do you have a source for this? The story I recall is that Hagar was an Egyptian princess who was given as a gift from Pharaoh.

    https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/hagar-midrash-and-aggadah#pid-13222

    The Rabbis present Hagar, Sarah’s Egyptian handmaiden, as an Egyptian princess whom Pharaoh king of Egypt gave to Sarah as a gift. She grew up in the home of Abraham and Sarah, and converted. Sarah initially had to persuade Hagar to marry Abraham (to compensate for her own barrenness), but Hagar quickly became accustomed to her new status, taking advantage of it in order to vex Sarah and disparage her in the eyes of others. The midrash tells that Abraham grew close to Hagar and ceased viewing her as a handmaiden.​
     
  15. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    You got me there. I was assuming she was property paid for and not property received as a gift.
     
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  16. Firelight

    Firelight The theory of evolution is false
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    You must have the same brand of crystal ball that “Indigo” has.
     
  17. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    Not your brand though right.
     
  18. Firelight

    Firelight The theory of evolution is false
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    I don’t have a crystal ball.
     
  19. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Retired Ruler
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    **Moved to Religious Debates**
     
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