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Featured Dealing with embarrassing passages in the Bible

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Oct 14, 2021.

  1. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    No. You can be a slave and consent to sex at the same time.

    Clean and unclean foods -which changed over time.

    According to scripture, even animals will soon be vegetarian or similar -as will man.

    No flesh in Eden, all flesh after, only some flesh with Deuteronomy/Leviticus, etc. -and no flesh again later -even applying to animals...

    "And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    When?
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, you can't. The very definition of slavery excludes this as a possibility.
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    To answer your questions directly: Yes I acknowledge that wives can be raped. But as far as I know, it's not permitted to rape your wife. I posted a link earlier in the thread giving talmudic evidence of this. Here it is again:

    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2016/06/27/how-do-the-rabbis-in-the-talmud-address-rape/

    I also don't think a forced marriage is legit.

    However, I would like to respond to your comment that "nowhere in the text does it say ... ". When details are missing from the text I prefer to consider all the possible options and then restrain judgement without further information.

    Now, we know that Hagar was free in some ways because she fled from Sarah. Gen 16:6-8. Do you have thoughts on this?

    We also know that Sarah did not do wrong because not once, but twice the text describes Sarah as an authority. First in Gen 16, the angel of HaShem ( the ineffable name ) says: "Return to your mistress, and allow yourself to be afflicted under her hands." ( verse 9 ). If Sarah did wrong, why does God send an angel to Hagar saying go back and be afflicted? The second time I already mentioned, it's in Chapter 21. God here is speaking with Abraham and tells him to listen to all of Sarah's words.

    So, we have:
    • Sarah's intention was to give Hagar as a wife, not a slave, not a concubine, not a maidservant
    • Hagar has freedom not afforded to a slave
    • An angel of HaShem vouches for Sarah
    • God, itself, vouches for Sarah
    All this is from the text. This seems to me to be leading the reader towards Sarah being correct in her actions per God. It also shows that being a שִׁפְחָ֥ה does not restrict a person in the same way that is normal for a slave.
     
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  5. Firelight

    Firelight The theory of evolution is false
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    Slaves make choices when their masters and mistresses GIVE them the choice. Are you claiming to know how every single slave owner treated their slaves at every given moment?
     
  6. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    You didn't read what he said? You even quoted him and didn't get it right? Are you not serious about this discussion, but are trying to coerce your position onto other's comments?
     
    #66 DNB, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  7. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    I'm sorry, but you made so many presuppositions, you failed to recognize other options in interpretation, and unduly offered only one interpretation for slavery and rape.
    Rachel and Leah had handmaids, it does not necessitate a tyrannical rule over them, even though they were possibly obligated to comply with their mistress' request to sleep with Abraham. It was a glory for a woman to have children in those times. Thus, it may very well have been a pleasure for Hagar to bear a child, especially considering that her status may have never given her the opportunity to do so otherwise.
    You impetuously and biasedly claim that Hagar was raped, simply because she was a slave with allegedly no consent to request other options to her master's demands. Abraham found favour with God for a reason, therefore we don't expect him to be accused of inhumane or unjust treatment towards his fellow man. That's a reliable predicate, not your rape theory. Plus, just because, as a slave, one must heed to their master's wishes, it does not imply their unbridled wishes. For in the Levitical Law there were restrictions upon the owner of a slave as to the degree of license that they had in dealing with their slaves. Slaves often loved their masters, and had much authority within their master's household.

    “When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment. If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone.
    “But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, and my wife and children: I do not wish to go free,’ his master shall take him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall then remain his slave for life.

    “If a fellow Hebrew, man or woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall set him free. When you set him free, do not let him go empty-handed: Furnish him out of the flock, threshing floor, and vat, with which the Lord your God has blessed you. Bear in mind that you were slaves in the land of Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I enjoin this commandment upon you today.
    “But should he say to you, ‘I do not want to leave you’ for he loves you and your household and is happy with you–you shall take an awl and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall become your slave in perpetuity. When you do set him free, do not feel aggrieved; for in the six years he has given you double the service of a hired man. Moreover, the LORD and your God will bless you in all you do.” (Deuteronomy 15:12-18)


    Some people, who lack faith and understanding, wish certain passages weren't in the Bible. Others, a bit more astute, try and justify the atrocities that we read about, namely Lot's offering of his daughters to be raped by the men of Sodom, or the similar account of the Levite and Benjamite in the Book of Judges. Meanwhile a third group, understands that these factual stories are included within the canon of Holy Writ for a divine reason. And this reason may transcend our understanding at the moment, but we trust that a Holy God is fully aware of what occurred, whether it be by His ordination or tacit permission, and that there is a righteous justification for such an allowance of certain behaviour.
     
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  8. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    o_O So like if Martians made you a slave but then you had a crush on one of them you could not consent to Martian mookie??
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Fabulous website, thanks. I hope everyone visits it. Yes, it was very ethically advanced.

    The way I see it, the whole thing was Sarah's choice, including the marraige. I don't think a master really has the right to give a slave in marriage. Again, it involves force. You simply dont see anything like, "And Hagar willingly became Abram's wife" in the text.

    The fact that women were treated like chattel in general is a related subject, but probably different enough not to make it a part of the discussion. But often in those days women were given in marriage by, i.e., their fathers. In terms of modern morality, that just doesn't fly.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It does. The word in hebrew means female slave. It's not like this was a hired maid. This was chattel slavery.

    Nor did this happen after the Torah conditions placed upon how to treat a slave, So your quotes don't really apply.
    This just is naive -- you clearly have no idea what it meant to be a slave.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Naivite. Slaves are not given choices. They are told what to do. You need to learn what slavery means.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Honestly, that's what you think happened?
     
  13. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Gen 1:29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
    Notice this applied also to animals in Eden.

    It was not until Noah's time that flesh -all flesh -was allowed -even as plants were before....

    Gen 9:1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

    Then only some flesh was allowed later in the OT -and in the future both humans and animals will again not eat flesh.
     
  14. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    There are multiple Jewish views on this. Some believe A&E were vegetarians whereas others believe they ate meat. It's late but I'll locate sources later, b"h.
     
  15. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    no -just that it can be a separate issue
     
  16. Firelight

    Firelight The theory of evolution is false
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    It also means maid, as in having a mistress. Hagar was Sarah’s household maid for many years before becoming Abraham’s wife. Hagar would’ve become like family to Sarah and Abraham.

    Look beyond your definition and consider simple human relationships that would’ve naturally developed in this story. They are all human beings, not just names on a page. Their story is much larger than the few details we have in Genesis. Open your view a little wider and see people for the goodness and the humanity they possess rather than just assuming it’s all wickedness.
     
  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Talking about slavery in biblical times, or the killing of Canaanites etc
    If you read the Paul's short letter to Philemon about his runaway slave Onesimus
    in the New Testament you get an idea how Christianity felt about slavery. Philemon
    was to treat his returned 'slave' not just as a brother, but as if the slave as Paul
    himself.
    And if you read Matthew 5,6 and 7 you get an idea of how people are to treat one
    another, and their duties to God.

    But some people dispense with these tracts when they judge the bible. For them
    the bible is about talking snakes, slaughtering Canaanites and justifying slavery.
    You are not asked to kill pagans or keep slaves - the injunctions are there in the
    Gospels for what is considered good living. But... we get the world we want, as
    my profile below shows.
     
  18. Firelight

    Firelight The theory of evolution is false
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    What is your source for slave laws at this point in time?

    What brand of crystal ball are you using to look into events in the past to know how every person in this story behaved?

    I’ve been in debate with you on other threads. You seem to be very literal and depend only on what is written and found in text. While possessing literary knowledge is great, it can very much limit one’s perspective if that’s all they use. Where does other resources like faith, spirituality, thinking, consideration, personal experiences, and the wisdom of God fit in? Truth isn’t found by using only that which is written.
     
    #78 Firelight, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    But it does say she was able to leave? She fled, on her own volition. Genesis 16:6-8

    How is she considered a slave if she was free to leave?

    Can we agree on this one point?
     
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  20. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    On the contrary, it is you who is unaware of the full spectrum of the capacity of a slave. Many slaves had gained wealth and prestige, within the functionality of a slave, and were able to elevate themselves out of their circumstances, if they so desired. You have an extremely narrow and biased understanding of both slavery, and the patriarch of God's chosen people - one designated as a 'friend of God'.
     
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