1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Dealing with embarrassing passages in the Bible

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Oct 14, 2021.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The Hebrew word means female slave.
     
  2. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2021
    Messages:
    2,704
    Ratings:
    +2,232
    Religion:
    Agnostic Lapsed Catholic

    Which is why I asked whether somebody well versed in Hebrew could verify the translation; i should have read on, because it turns out someone already had;

    See post #12

    Now who am I to accept as correct, you or this other poster who is also cognisant with Hebrew?
    This, for an English speaker like me, is why the King James Bible, and the unprecedented level of scholarship that underpins it, is such a valuable resource.

    It's the meaning which matters.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,914
    Ratings:
    +4,450
    Religion:
    Islam
    Thats the fallacy of division and association both.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I replied to post #12, and am happy to repeat my response here. I am not that well versed in Hebrew, but I CAN access a corcordance and lexion, such as strongs:

    שִׁפְחָ֥ה
    shif-khaw'

    Orig: feminine from an unused root meaning to spread out (as a family; see 4940); a female slave (as a member of the household):--(bond-, hand-)maid(-en, -servant), wench, bondwoman, womanservant. H4940
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No, its a simple matter of the definition of word in Hebrew and understanding what it means.
     
  6. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    8,511
    Ratings:
    +2,097
    You ask some good questions. But my question is why do many accounts in the scriptures and even situations in our own lives often show God allowing people to do things without correction? That doesn’t mean there are not consequences, though and Sarah’s actions did have consequences, even impacting Ishmael and Isaac. I would say Sarah was blessed with a child because
    God’s promise to Abraham did not depend on her human effort, nor could it be altered by human error. God kept His promise in His way and timing. Isaac became the promised son through whom the tribes of Israel would arise. Hagar was blessed, set free from Sarah, and her son, Ishmael, also became a great leader. I believe the account shows how God continues to work both to accomplish His will and to fulfill His promises regardless of how the situation appears from a human perspective, faulty human effort, or unfaithful behavior.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,914
    Ratings:
    +4,450
    Religion:
    Islam
    Nah. Just because she was a slave, does not mean she was definitely raped. No way. Thats two fallacies. Illogical deduction.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It amazes me that people don't seem to have a clue about what slavery means.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,914
    Ratings:
    +4,450
    Religion:
    Islam
    Rhetoric is not a valid argument.

    You are making a logically fallacious argument. I am not a Christian, and I dont have any necessity to white wash the Bible. But I dont intend to demonise it on purpose whichever I can. It may have a lot of other problems, but this particular claim that simply because Hagar was a slave, it was rape is false. Its just wrong, and a made up bogus argument for whatever reason you may have.

    Genesis 16:3 says that Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to be "His wife". So if that makes it "rape", there is no more sensibility in your argument.

    Cheers.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4,400
    Ratings:
    +2,003
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I don’t think “we” know any such thing. The Hebrew servant was not chattel. Hebrew servants had rights.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    You don't acknowledge that wives can be raped? Again, no consent. Not to any marriage (if indeed that is what "to wife" means), and not to sex. You cannot be a slave and consent.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Oh of course we know it. The only people who supposedly don't know it are those who are in denial about what slavery is.

    And we are not talking about the indentured servitude that the Torah regulates. We ARE talking chattel slavery here.
     
  13. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4,400
    Ratings:
    +2,003
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No, we aren’t. Torah is clear that servants have rights. Read the Ten Commandments. It lists some of the rights Hebrew servants had. The Jews were the first recorded people to not have chattel slaves.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    A slave, whether the indentured servant, or the captive who is a slave for life, does not make their own choices. That is the definition of a slave.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,914
    Ratings:
    +4,450
    Religion:
    Islam
    Okay. So now your argument is that even though she was his wife he still raped her.

    That’s begging the question. Logically fallacious.

    your argument changes so much because you have a pre determined necessity.

    ciao.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    9,492
    Ratings:
    +6,684
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I hear you. My objection is the harsh criticism of Sarah. What is your opinion on Gen. 21:12? There's two interesting details here. First, would God have told Abraham to listen to all she says ( "כֹּל אֲשֶׁ֨ר תֹּאמַ֥ר") if Sarah had initiated Hagar's rape? Second, in this verse Hagar is labeled "אָמָֽה" not "שִׁפְחָ֥ה", so maybe there is a status change which happened after she concieved.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Are you saying that a wife can't be raped? No consent means no consent. A slave wife cannot consent.

    Related question: do you think forced marraiges are legitimate?
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    9,492
    Ratings:
    +6,684
    Religion:
    Judaism
    @IndigoChild5559 ,

    I just noticed, please take a look at Gen 16:3, Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham "**as a wife to him**" An Isha, not a slave. Then after Abraham and Hagar consummated the marriage ( verse 6 ) Abraham returns Hagar to Sarah as a שִׁפְחָ֥ה, a maidservant. To me this indicates a status change. During her relations with Abraham, she was free.

    Also note in verse 6 that Hagar fled. How can a slave flee like that? This shows she has freewill of the sort not expected as a slave. This is confirmed in verse 8. Hagar says "I am running away from Sarah, my mistress". I ask again, are slaves allowed to run away?
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,366
    Religion:
    Judaism
    There is a kind of wife known as a concubine. Hagar did not stop being a slave. No where in the text does it say they freed her.

    surely you acknowledge that wives can be raped? No consent means no consent.

    let me ask you a quesiton. if a marriage is forced, is it legitimate?
     
  20. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    23,013
    Ratings:
    +35,452
    Religion:
    Noachide
    The issue here is that this was before Torah.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...