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Featured Dead Matter to Live Aware Matter

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by idav, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. idav

    idav Being
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    This is even a bit more than abiogenesis (how life came about through chemical processes). Where can we point and say, I think there is awareness there? Even at the most rudimentary levels of life, single celled organisms already display signs of learning so awareness is somehow present at the inception of life, the intelligent agent is itself. How could dead matter ever accomplish such a feat?

    Here is an article that gets into single celled learning capabilities, which states learning happened in evolution even before nervous systems and brains. How is that possible?
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160427081533.htm
     
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  2. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

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    What is dead matter or is that what you are implying?
     
  3. idav

    idav Being
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    I am seeing matter and energy as dead unless they are in a certain configuration in which we consider those same substances and chemicals as alive and aware. When an organism dies these same chemicals and elements go back to the earth.
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Machines can learn. Learning isn't the sine qua non of life.
     
  5. idav

    idav Being
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  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    all the way back to grade school.....
    life has certain and sure qualities

    it consumes
    it reproduces

    the list has become quite confusing since grade school
    viruses are something odd
    and some higher forms can freeze solid and return when the weather warms
    (was it dead for a while?....apparently not.....and how was it considered alive?)
     
  7. idav

    idav Being
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    Do you think viruses are zombies as far as awareness is concerned?
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    well....they sure 'know' how to make us sick

    and it seems they adapt when exposed to chemistry
     
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  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    They're not even alive.
     
  10. idav

    idav Being
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    Which makes them good for comparison. OP is asking when is matter alive and aware, seems viruses have one and not the other.
     
  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    we might have to consider a line drawn
    how about?.... fight or flight

    at some level that we can be aware of.....
    we call the shot only if the reaction can be predictable

    viruses are at the edge of that line
    they can't really run away
    and their defenses are unknown

    They either survive.....or die

    perhaps we could draw the line.....at reproduction
    they seem to know when they are ready and able
     
  12. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    If it quacks like a duck, but isn't a duck, then it is something else that is similar in that way.

    I'd imagine a system like a nervous system -but based on smaller components.

    I'd also say that the difference between alive and dead is arrangement into a system or lack thereof -or it might be said that nothing is truly dead as long as it is dynamic (a system) in some way. Most would not consider any one component of themselves to be alive, yet consider the system to be alive -but the system could not be alive in a complex way if the components were not alive in a more simple way. As long as electrons are spinning around in atoms which interact in specific ways, systems can be built from them which would interact with their environment in specific ways -and this would also be true of smaller things which are also dynamic.
     
    #12 Etritonakin, Nov 13, 2017
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  13. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    A nervous system has never been necessary for organisms to learn or to be intelligent - common anthropocentric biases tend to prevent the recognition of this amongst most humans aside from the scientists (and occasional laypersons) aware of the research done in non-human intelligence. All organisms have to be able to sense and respond to their environment to respond to at least some degree, and doing so does not require a nervous system.

    Easy-to-grasp examples of this kind of sensation and perception include plant roots sensing gravity to grow downwards and other parts of a plant sensing light to grow towards it. Various chemicals inside the plant are responsible for these things. All sensation and perception of the environment by any organism boils down to chemicals, really. And learning happens when more (or less) chemicals are produced with particular frequency that ingrains patterns into the organism.
     
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  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    There never was a clear life -- non-life boundary. We see Nature forming self-replicating molecules, amino acids, RNA, lipid membranes, &c; parts of life. At what point are combinations of these considered life?

    There's a big grey area of "lifelike stuff" or quasi-life, if you ask me.
     
  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    There are a lot more freezable insects than those mentioned in the article, as well as some fish (I was quite the little monster as a kid). The question remains: were those creatures in the back of our freezer alive, or dead, or...?
     
    #16 Valjean, Nov 13, 2017
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  17. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and practitioners of resuscitation now suspect the life is still there hours after body functions cease
    long after most doctors call the time of death

    but I still don't confuse fire as a life form
    and rocks don't speak to me

    some physical theorists like to discuss how substance carries 'information'
    as long as the information remains intact....so too the substance
    as if the two nouns are one in the same

    so maybe mummies and other grave sites should be left alone?
     
  18. idav

    idav Being
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    Do you think the same of awareness, there are combinations of "quasi" awareness? I feel like life is the first indication of matter "wanting" something.
     
  19. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Awareness and consciousness are complete mysteries, IMHO.
    That said, I don't see most life as "wanting" anything.
     
  20. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

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    They meet all the definitions of life when activated. That's why they are such an amazing study concerning life and death, living and non-living.
     
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