• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
In another thread the question was asked about Judaism's concept of "messiah." In this thread I will only be presenting what Torath Mosheh sources state on the matter of a future Dadivic king/leader who is espected to lead according to Torath Mosheh.

Note: This information only covers what can be called Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism. I.e. sources that are derived from ancient Torath Mosheh sources prior to about 500 years ago found among/are common to/agreed upon by Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Maghrebi Jews, Yemenite Jews, Hasidic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Untra-Orthodox Jews, Litvik Jews, and Hereidi Jews.

Please Note: Anything that doesn't fall into these categories are not a part of this analysis.


Thus, the common concepts in all the above groups has historically been.
  1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
    • Similar to what the Torah states was happening among Israelis in Egypt before Hashem approached Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) to return and lead the way.
    • Some sources say that this may happen one of two ways. a) Jews living in Israel choose to return to ancient Jewish/Torah based practice/culture/text or b) Jews living in Israel find themselves with their backs completely against the wall w/o any other alternative and they desire to return to the Torah due to the inability to escape the situation by any other means.
  2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
    • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
  3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
    • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. Thus, at this point the person is considered a Davidic King (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
  4. Said proven halakhically Jewish Davidic descendent, who based on point 2 and 3, will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is he is to do.
    • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
    • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
  5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelekh (Solomon) led.
    • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
    • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.
  6. While all of the above is happening Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are allowed to say, "Maybe he is mashiahh." We are not allowed to say he definately is. See important note below.
Important note: Only if the above Davidic king succeeds in restoring the Torah at all levels in the land of Israel (i.e. 100% proof Hebrew Tanakh based proof that the Source of Creation supports him, government structure, social structure, Temple in Jerusalem) and brings about world peace is he actually the (משיח) Mashiahh/Davidic king who leads by Torath Mosheh. If he fails at any of the above or if he dies before completeling the ENTIRE process it is known he was not (משיח) and at most was a descendant of David who made the attempt; nothing more! If that then was the case then Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews move on as before.

I hope that helps.

upload_2021-11-21_14-2-12.png
 
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Question: "How will Jews all get together to accept a potential mashiahh?"

Answer: The way is that it starts in the land of Israel. Jews living in Israel have a lot more to lose from anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish sentiment. What often has been the case is that the circumstances become so dire and that starts to cause people to really decide what is more important. Especially, if they try everything else and it doesn't work.

A similar situation happened when Hellonist in the Middle East tried to force Jews living in Israel to give up the Torah and accept Hellonism. In response to several incidents of pressure from Hellonists, the various Torath Mosheh Jewish factions united seeing they had a common threat. i.e. their backs were completely against the walls. Also, during the Roman occupation something similar happened between both Jews and Samaritans for a time.

Devarim (Deut.) 30:1-4 in the Hebrew Torah explains that if the Jewish people decide to turn back to Hashem after all of the difficulties mentioned in the Torah for not keeping it happen and Israelis realize that the Torah that was given at Mount Sinai is the only option - then Hashem responds to this by providing what the people want.

upload_2021-11-21_14-11-50.png


The Torath Mosheh concept is that if the generation merits it then it will succeed in a way that will cause others to take notice.

upload_2021-11-21_15-58-56.png
 
Last edited:

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
  • A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
    • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. Thus, at this point the person is considered a Davidic King (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)

Would that be the impetus to building another Temple? A standing Mosaic Court? Or are they not related.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Would that be the impetus to building another Temple? A standing Mosaic Court? Or are they not related.
  1. The Jews in Israel desire/put in the work to return to the Torah. (written and oral)
  2. The return of (נבואה) Torah based prophecy. (Only Hashem can cause this to happen)
  3. The return of the Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin. (Also, local courts)
  4. Not having internal conflict that would prevent enacting the proper measures for a Temple to exist. (Access to the area, materials, lack of sabatoge, etc.)
Theoretically, a temple could be attempted to be built with at least these four things happening. The challenge is completing it and keeping it standing.

Thus, the end game is that a Davidic king would be needed to lead the Israeli/Jewish nation to what we call (ימות משיח) or what some call in English "the Messianic Era."
 

1213

Well-Known Member
In another thread the question was asked about Judaism's concept of "messiah." In this thread I will only be presenting what Torath Mosheh sources state on the matter of a future Dadivic king/leader who is espected to lead according to Torath Mosheh.

Note: This information only covers what can be called Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism. I.e. sources that are derived from ancient Torath Mosheh sources prior to about 500 years ago found among/are common to/agreed upon by Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Maghrebi Jews, Yemenite Jews, Hasidic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Untra-Orthodox Jews, Litvik Jews, and Hereidi Jews.

Please Note: Anything that doesn't fall into these categories are not a part of this analysis.


Thus, the common concepts in all the above groups has historically been.
  1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
    • Similar to what the Torah states was happening among Israelis in Egypt before Hashem approached Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) to return and lead the way.
    • Some sources say that this may happen one of two ways. a) Jews living in Israel choose to return to ancient Jewish/Torah based practice/culture/text or b) Jews living in Israel find themselves with their backs completely against the wall w/o any other alternative and they desire to return to the Torah due to the inability to escape the situation by any other means.
  2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish communityreceives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
    • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
  3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrinis able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
    • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. Thus, at this point the person is considered a Davidic King (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
  4. Said proven halakhically Jewish Davidic descendent, who based on point 2 and 3, will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is he is to do.
    • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
    • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
  5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc.said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelekh (Solomon) led.
    • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
    • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.
  6. While all of the above is happening Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are allowed to say, "Maybe he is mashiahh." We are not allowed to say he definately is. See important note below.
Important note: Only if the above Davidic king succeeds in restoring the Torah at all levels in the land of Israel (i.e. 100% proof Hebrew Tanakh based proof that the Source of Creation supports him, government structure, social structure, Temple in Jerusalem) and brings about world peace is he actually the (משיח) Mashiahh/Davidic king who leads by Torath Mosheh. If he fails at any of the above or if he dies before completeling the ENTIRE process it is known he was not (משיח) and at most was a descendant of David who made the attempt; nothing more! If that then was the case then Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews move on as before.

I hope that helps.

View attachment 57712
It would have been nice to see the scriptures supporting those points.

I would like to hear what do you think about Jer. 30:7-10, Ezek. 37:24-25. will the Messiah for Jews actually be king David?

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. It shall come to pass in that day, says Yahweh of Hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and will burst your bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondservant; but they shall serve Yahweh their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them. Therefore don't you be afraid, O Jacob my servant, says Yahweh; neither be dismayed, Israel: for, behold, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be quiet and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer. 30:7-10
My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, forever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.
Ezek. 37:24-25
 

Andrew Stephen

Stephen Andrew
Premium Member
Peace to all,

To me, the logic of the bonds He burst becomes the new wineskins. The Bodies in the "New" divine, some say "Holy" Spirit will of the Creator through the flesh to the souls of the Beings of all mankind are resurrected. And along now with all the Souls, saints and angels from the Bosom of Abraham awaiting, becoming united as one in being in the New Wineskins as One in Being with the Father and The Son, glorified and transfigured.

To me the logic is We are created, mortal and corrupt, and become immortal and incorruptible and then we become again, becoming glorified and transfigured just like the second coming of the Divine Body in all mankind.

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

To me this is the Fulfilled Divine, some say "Holy" Spirit intelligence That is poured in the immortal and incorruptible Body of all mankind becoming the image of the Creator, God, The Father as glorified and transfigured. To me unfailing eternity is fulfilled through the manifestation in infallible logic by the intelligence delivered by the New Path of the Covenant through the flesh to the soul of the Body of the being in The New Winskin.
To me this is the logic I see, and I mean it in a good way, for all.

To me the logic is the spirit becomes immortal and incorruptible in the Waters of the New Body, the New Temple in all mankind. And we become as brothers and sisters with all mankind from the fulfilled faith and morality. And we will become again with all mankind from the Divine Body as glorified and transfigured into the image of the Creator, God, The Father through the fulfilled faith and morality. The logic to me is in the Arc of the New Covenant for all to share in His divinity as one in being in the Divine Spirit will that will never fail in eternity as "What would the Divine Spirit will, The Paraclete delivered and left for all to share by the New Arc, do in all cases of fulfilled faith and morality?"

To me the intelligence of the being is what is delivered and the final Exodus as transfigured in the Divine Spirit through the flesh to the soul, the Fulfilled Body of the New Being. To me the Logic of the Kingdom of the Divine Will is We open the doors in fulfilled faith and morality to all mankind through the Divine Spirit Will of the Creator becoming one in being, transfigured.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
 
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I would like to hear what do you think about Jer. 30:7-10, Ezek. 37:24-25. will the Messiah for Jews actually be king David?
What we Jews know will happen is that there will be a Davidic King, as I have mentioned before the word messiah to Christians means something different than it does to Jews. So, the reason future Davidic King is called by David's name is because he will be from the line of David and Solomon through his father's line. Further, it s device in written Hebrew from the time to identify a person's path based on their ancestry. So, there are times that David's descendants were called, even externally, Beith Dawith (House of David). See below.

1721725626048.png
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What we Jews know will happen is that there will be a Davidic King, as I have mentioned before the word messiah to Christians means something different than it does to Jews. So, the reason future Davidic King is called by David's name is because he will be from the line of David and Solomon through his father's line. Further, it s device in written Hebrew from the time to identify a person's path based on their ancestry. So, there are times that David's descendants were called, even externally, Beith Dawith (House of David). See below.
Thanks, I think the scriptures i gave means God will raise the king David from death. I don't see how it could mean anything else, for example because Solomon was not called David. Being from house of David doesn't in my opinion mean the persons name is also David.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I think the scriptures i gave means God will raise the king David from death.
In the Hebrew text it doesn't say that. It could be a matter of your translation being done by someone who inserted that idea.
 

Andrew Stephen

Stephen Andrew
Premium Member
Peace to all,

I found this quote on a website, by Real CHr, is it true?

"Jesus descends physically from King David and derives His right to sit on the throne of King David through His Mother, Mary. Her lineage is shown in the gospel of Luke at Chapter 3. He also descended from King David through his adoptive father, Joseph. This is shown in the gospel of Matthew at Chapter 1." quote from Real Chr.

According to the Bible, Jesus was anointed in three different places:
  • Simon the Leper's house in Bethany
    In Matthew 26:6–13 and Mark 14:3–9, an unnamed woman anoints Jesus' head with expensive perfume while he's reclining at a dinner table. This event likely took place a day or two before the Last Supper. Some say the woman may have been Mary, the sister of Lazarus. When the disciples object, Jesus defends her actions as a sign of his impending death.
  • Simon the Pharisee's house in Galilee
    At least two years before the crucifixion, a woman anoints Jesus' feet with fragrant oil.
  • Lazarus, Mary, and Martha's house in Bethany
    Six days before Passover and a few days before the Triumphal Entry, Mary anoints Jesus' feet with spikenard oil.
Jesus is from the Order of Malki Tzedek, one of the Three sons of Noah who was still alive at the time of Abraham.

"Noah blessed Shem above his brothers (Genesis 9:26–27), and it was through Shem that the promised seed destined to crush Satan came (Genesis 3:15). That seed is traced back to Adam’s son Seth (Genesis 5:1–32), through Shem, and on to Abraham, Judah, and David, leading all the way to Christ (Luke 3:36)." Got Questions Sons of Noah.

Tzedek is created righteousness and justice by graciously giving, King of Shalom, completeness and undividedness and perfection.

To me in logic, through the New Body and Out of The Bosom of Abraham are we resurrected.

To me in logic, we are united as one through the Divine.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
"Jesus descends physically from King David and derives His right to sit on the throne of King David through His Mother, Mary. Her lineage is shown in the gospel of Luke at Chapter 3. He also descended from King David through his adoptive father, Joseph. This is shown in the gospel of Matthew at Chapter 1." quote from Real Chr.
I don't see how it could be said Luke has Mary's lineage, when it says:

Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
Luke 3:23
According to the Bible, Jesus was anointed in three different places:
  • Simon the Leper's house in Bethany
    In Matthew 26:6–13 and Mark 14:3–9, an unnamed woman anoints Jesus' head with expensive perfume while he's reclining at a dinner table. This event likely took place a day or two before the Last Supper. Some say the woman may have been Mary, the sister of Lazarus. When the disciples object, Jesus defends her actions as a sign of his impending death.
  • Simon the Pharisee's house in Galilee
    At least two years before the crucifixion, a woman anoints Jesus' feet with fragrant oil.
  • Lazarus, Mary, and Martha's house in Bethany
    Six days before Passover and a few days before the Triumphal Entry, Mary anoints Jesus' feet with spikenard oil.
I think this is the most important anointment:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19
Jesus, when he was baptized, went up directly from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened to him. He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming on him. Behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Matt. 3:16-17
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much! If David has died and God puts David back to be the king, it would mean David is raised from death, which is why I think the translation is not wrong, even if it is not very accurate. But, different thing obviously is, if David doesn't really mean David, but Davidic.

To me the idea of Davidic is problematic, because I don't think Bible supports that. But, in a way it could be good, because then one could claim Jesus is the Davidic king. I have to think this more.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much! If David has died and God puts David back to be the king, it would mean David is raised from death, which is why I think the translation is not wrong, even if it is not very accurate. But, different thing obviously is, if David doesn't really mean David, but Davidic.

To me the idea of Davidic is problematic, because I don't think Bible supports that. But, in a way it could be good, because then one could claim Jesus is the Davidic king. I have to think this more.
In that case you would have to see your translation as better than the original text, in the format and the culture with which the origianl was written in as well as the audience it was written for. It is not my place to change your view on that. ;)
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
In that case you would have to see your translation as better than the original text, in the format and the culture with which the origianl was written in as well as the audience it was written for.
Why do you think the scripture has David, not Davidic? What would be the best argument for that it doesn't really mean David, but Davidic?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Why do you think the scripture has David, not Davidic? What would be the best argument for that it doesn't really mean David, but Davidic?
In Hebrew, that is how is how you express the concept of Davidic. Again, ancient Hebrew is not English. The way ideas are expressed and even written is not like English. In Hebrew there is no "ic" in a statement. That is an part of the English language. I am translating the idea to you from Hebrew to English.

The text, in Hebrew, is the best arguement that it isn't talking about David himself, or him coming back from the dead. Again, if someone wants to ignore the Hebrew text and make up their own idea, foreign to the text, we Jews are warned to stay away from their conept.
 

Andrew Stephen

Stephen Andrew
Premium Member
Peace to all,

Moses and Arc of the Covenant saved the souls to The Bosom of Abraham and the flesh was lost.

Peace always,
Stephen
 
Top