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Darwin's Illusion

cladking

Well-Known Member
If so many experiments or evidence AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED THEY ALWAYS DO, then you really shouldn’t have any problems with citing & showing your sources of these experiments to support your claims in regards to YOUR VERSION of Evolution.

I've done this a few times before and you ignore it;

Experimental evolution - Wikipedia

Follow the links there are thousands of experiments all supporting my interpretation.

And btw, cladking. I am not accepting Darwin’s model of Natural Selection, I have accepted the current model or modern model of Natural Selection as it is taught today, not the 19th century model.

A rose or a skunk by any other name...

Biologists don’t just rely on the 19th century Natural Selection.

I agree we are getting closer to reality with every new iteration of "Evolution". But it is still WRONG, IMO.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
but science is the best means we have to explain the Work of God, the world and the universe around us.

Absolutely, science is the best means we have to explain the Work of God.

The core argument is about whether life and the entire universe are manifestations of purpose/design or mere products of randomness. It’s really amazing that you concluded your long post # 2174 with this truthful statement that refutes your entire preceding argument to conclude at the end in favor of purpose/design!!!

Religions are neither against science nor an attack on science. Religions are never against the truth; Religions are against everything that is false, deceiving and immoral.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
science is the best means we have to explain the Work of God, the world and the universe around us.

The religion of Islam acknowledged this very principle that “science is the best means we have to explain the Work of God” and it was the driving force that gave rise to the Islamic golden age and the emergence of modern science.

Below is a copy of my post # 1452

Islam was the driving force that established the basis of the new scientific method. Are you even aware that the numbers that you are using are Arabic numbers? Can you Imagine how would our world today look like without it?

Fibonacci’s work made the Arabic numerals known in Europe. European trade, books, and colonialism helped popularize the adoption of Arabic numerals around the world. See the link

Arabic numerals - Wikipedia

(Below is a copy from #332)

The Islamic Civilization was the first Civilization where its citizens were religiously obligated to learn to read, write and disseminate knowledge which led to the Islamic scientific achievement of the “Islamic Golden Age” that established the basis of the modern scientific method.

Professor George Sarton the founder of the discipline of the history of science wrote "Perhaps the main, as well as the least obvious, achievement of the Middle Ages, was the creation of the experimental spirit ... This was primarily due to Muslims down to the end of the twelfth century”

Robert Briffault in his book “The Making of Humanity” wrote “What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs.”

https://ia600905.us.archive.org/5/items/makingofhumanity00brifrich/makingofhumanity00brifrich.pdf

The making of humanity (archive.org)
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Then declare a believed view as the winner by default. Never mind that there are literally tens of thousands of alternative, competitive and contradictive believed views vying for the position and not just a single one.

How many times should I repeat that my religious views have nothing to do with disproving the central assumptions of the modern synthesis? Why is that so difficult to understand? See # 781.

And again NO, disproving the MS doesn’t render my religious view a winner by default. I said that multiple times. Why don’t you get it? Simply if I make such claim, it would be a “false dichotomy". The validity of my belief is a separate argument that has nothing to do with the validity/invalidity of the ToE. Do you understand?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
The modern synthesis is currently the best explanation we have for the observations and acceptance of it is based on the evidence, the explanatory power and the predictive ability of the theory. Powers that have been demonstrated quite frequently

False, it’s merely your wish or blind belief in an obsolete theory. The latest 21st century science disproved all the central assumptions of the modern synthesis (neo-darwinism). No exception. See # 753 & 781.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 40 | Religious Forums

Denis Noble said,” All these assumptions have been disproved in various ways and to varying degrees, and it is also important to note that a substantial proportion of the experimental work that has revealed these breaks has come from within molecular biology itself. Molecular biology can now be seen to have systematically deconstructed its own dogmas”.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
controversy in science over details and explanations means the complete breakdown of science

I never claimed it’s a complete breakdown of science. It’s a breakdown of the modern synthesis.

And an argument against the ToE is not an attack on science, after all, the ToE really belongs to the “Geisteswissenschaften” as stated by the Darwin of the 20th century Ernst Walter Mayr, see # 331

Darwin's Illusion | Page 17 | Religious Forums
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
The extended evolutionary synthesis as a complete replacement of the existing theory of evolution or modern synthesis is not widely accepted among biologists. Even among those that favor an extended view there is a difference of opinion over whether it replaces the existing theory or augments it by asserting a less gene-centric perspective. This controversy among the greater or lesser groups of scientists does not arise out of rejection from a dogmatic position comparable to a belief in religion. Rather, it arises out of the very real and necessary skepticism of science and the need for robust data to support radical claims and come to the most and best informed conclusions. Continually citing a few sources without explanation or failing to explain how existing views are wrong or incomplete isn't good enough. Frankly, it reveals a pretty thin understanding of the science by those that carry out such silly undertakings.

The amusing thing is that both the modern synthesis and the EES are theories of evolution and, if the evidence warrants it, the success of the EES is still the success of a scientific theory explaining the evidence of evolution that is observed and not the manifestation of a religious declaration. The acceptance of a better theory does not make those that accepted a previous theory or version somehow dogmatic believers as if their acceptance were somehow a belief-based view. The modern synthesis is currently the best explanation we have for the observations and acceptance of it is based on the evidence, the explanatory power and the predictive ability of the theory. Powers that have been demonstrated quite frequently and I predict will continue so. No one is claiming it is perfect, ultimate theory or that it no longer rates extension, but extension is not replacement and it does not mean that a particular, individual religious view becomes an objective, default replacement of one or the other theoretical positions.

The main objective of the rejection of science on this thread has had that latter view as its basis. That the natural skepticism and controversy in science over details and explanations means the complete breakdown of science and un-evidenced religious explanations become the sole answer to observation or the means to deny or wave off those observations. Ultimately, it is another, more grandiose version of a gap argument where the attempt isn't just to argue in the gap, but to manufacture the gap by any means including falsely attributing inherent qualities of evil to scientific theories that have never been demonstrated to exist. Then declare a believed view as the winner by default. Never mind that there are literally tens of thousands of alternative, competitive and contradictive believed views vying for the position and not just a single one. And none of those have objective evidence to favor one over the other let alone over the evidenced and reasoned explanations of science. It is an irrational and obvious folly visible to all except apparently those churning out pages of text to attempt it.

In my personal opinion, monotheists do not really understand the Word of God even as some seem to imply that ability for themselves, and interpretations vary widely, but science is the best means we have to explain the Work of God, the world and the universe around us.

Again, I’m not advocating for the extended evolutionary synthesis, the EES is not a widespread view. The widespread view is the fact that the ToE (modern synthesis) has failed and should be replaced. See #781 and #911.

Both the modern synthesis and the EES emerged on the basis of an assumed axiomatic view of evolution, the very notion that evolution must be true before the evidence and regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

The modern synthesis is a false theory based on false assumption as already proven by the 21st century finds of molecular biology (see #781). Regardless of that failure, the false axiomatic status of the ToE didn’t change.

Regardless of that failure, scientists continue trying to provide explanation based on evolution. As if the disproved assumptions of the theory (MS) that contradicts empirical evidence don’t render the theory itself false.

Even so Scientists already acknowledged the fact that the MS contradicts the empirical evidence of the real world, yet they didn’t give up on evolution. It must be evolution one way or another. They chose to hold tight to an unjustified axiom no matter what.

Acknowledging the 21st century scientific finds that disproved all assumptions of the MS is not an attack on science. Science is ever changing/progressing and correcting itself. On the other hand, Intentional concealment/denial of latest scientific finds is without any doubt an attack on science and the very fact that science gradually corrects itself. The route/endeavor towards better understanding of reality must continue even if some are in favor of suppressing its progress.

Progress never means that science is at the finish line. The route is long. Science can only keep progressing. In many cases, the more we progress, the more we realize that the target is much farther.

The cell as a building block of life was understood by Darwin to be simple enough that it can spontaneously emerge in a warm pond. The more we acquired knowledge, the more we understood that a single living cell is an extremely complex structure beyond imagination. The more we know, the more we realize that the original target is moving much further away and the more we see that all of our assumptions were false, nonetheless continued to willingly hold tight to an unevidenced premise.

Our pursuit to understand reality is an endless route. Some may think observations/experimentations are enough or the only means to understand reality. They are wrong. It’s never about the data; it’s always about logical/neutral interpretations of the data and following the trail of evidence wherever it leads.

The essence of naturalism is the principle that naturalism is intended/promoted as a “posteriori” view. It's not/should not be a commitment in advance to certain ontology of any kind. Evidence should be followed where it leads.

Naturalism is not an absolute commitment but rather a provisional commitment that should be open to revision even for what may be perceived as a radical kind of entities, forces or relations.

In principle, Naturalism as a posteriori view should accommodate any conclusion driven by data no matter how radical it appears to be. No assumption of any kind should be established as a priori tell the data is first examined. That is exactly the logical error that can be seen in actual application of naturalism, which is the strict adherence to unjustified false priori without any data to support it.

We cannot hold a position merely on the basis of its alignment with what we want to accept as true. We don’t get to dictate the route or what lies beneath at the finish line even before we get there, if we seek the truth, we may only follow the route/evidence wherever it leads, and as we move forward, we’ll get a better chance to see what is actually there.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
many theories will ultimately be improved, often to the point that a previous theory will be abandoned. That is likely to happen to the modern synthesis some day.

Exactly, the modern synthesis is going to be abandoned. It’s simply because as scientists gained more knowledge, they became cognizant of the fact that the MS contradicts contemporary molecular evidence and invokes a set of false assumptions. IOW, the theory is false.

If the modern synthesis is false and is going to be abandoned, then on what basis would proponents of evolution still claim that evolution is true?

You will say the evidence, but you forgot that these evidence were interpretations of data in light of the modern synthesis itself, if the MS is false, the interpretations are necessarily false. Meaning, the supporting evidence are false.

The MS/ToE is a false theory that gave rise to false conclusions, and then the false conclusions became evidence that support the theory. IOW, circular reasoning.

Logically, if a theory is false; then all concepts/conclusions that were built on the false basis/assumptions of that theory are necessarily false.

But just like Einstein showing that newton was quite wrong about parts of gravity that does not mean that we will no longer be apes. That is the ultimate hope of some. That somehow this new group that still knows that we are apes will disprove that fact. That is about as likely to happen as us floating off into space once a theory of quantum gravitation is perfected. When the change comes i will gladly accept it. But i am not jumping at every new proposed theory and either accepting them or rejecting them. I will just apply the standard of not accepting them until they clearly demonstrate their superiority with evidence.

If a new theory didn’t emerge yet, it's not a justification to insist on an obsolete theory after all of its central assumptions were proven to contradict empirical evidence.

You cannot insist on an obsolete theory. you simply need to accept the fact that, we don’t currently have an agreed upon conceptual framework to explain the world’s data.

That said, your belief in evolution is not justified.

You cannot compare evolution to gravity. We see gravity and know that gravity is a fact regardless of the theoretical framework attempting to explain it. This is not the case with evolution, we see adaptations and know it’s a fact (based on directed mutation) but we never see the alleged total transformation from one species into another. It’s not a fact. It’s only a story, merely an interpretation based on a theory (MS) without any remaining basis to stand on since ALL of its central assumptions were disproved due to contradiction with the real-world empirical evidence.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't continually claim that the EES has resulted in the rejection of all the core assumptions of the Modern Synthesis without first listing all those assumptions and then showing how and why they are rejected. I have not seen that.

Again, it's not the EES that resulted the rejection of all the core assumptions of the Modern Synthesis and the rejection is not my claim, it’s the assertion of top scientists and it’s mainly driven by the contemporary evidence of Molecular Biology. See # 781

And I wonder how come you didn’t see the list in #753 and #781?

One more time, see the list below and the link to the entire lecture.
Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology (wiley.com)

2013 Birmingham, UK, As the President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences (IUPS), Denis Noble addressed the fundamental assumptions of the Modern Synthesis below and explained why it has been disproved:

- First, genetic change is random.

- Second, genetic change is gradual.

- Third, following genetic change, natural selection leads to particular gene variants (alleles) increasing in frequency within the population.

- Fourth, the inheritance of acquired characteristics is impossible.

Denis Noble said in his lecture, “ALL THESE ASSUMPTIONS HAVE BEEN DISPROVED in various ways and to varying degrees, and it is also important to note that a substantial proportion of the experimental work that has revealed these breaks has come from within molecular biology itself. Molecular biology can now be seen to have systematically deconstructed its own dogmas”

Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology - Noble - 2013 - Experimental Physiology - Wiley Online Library

upload_2022-9-21_22-14-43.png


upload_2022-9-21_22-15-37.png
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
If the theory of evolution is so obviously wrong, why is it that no one can point out the obvious?

Top scientists did. See #781

The real question is, why people deny the obvious?

Simply people choose to hold a specific position vs. another on the basis of its alignment with what they want to accept as true. People make their own relative reality. It’s a relative perception but more importantly a choice aligned with who they are.

The fact remains, if an organism is not equipped from day one with what it needs to survive, it will simply not survive till day two, if it doesn’t survive, it definitely doesn’t evolve.

See # 2137 for more details.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 107 | Religious Forums
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You're still not making any sense.

Recall, that according to the Wiki page that you linked to, the EES is the addition of "multilevel selection, transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, niche construction, evolvability, and several concepts from evolutionary developmental biology" as mechanisms that drive evolution.

So no, the EES does not have anything to do with the central assumptions of the modern synthesis being disproved.

First, don’t move the goal posts. You claimed that I was previously advocating for the EES and I explained to you that I never did. Let's move on.

Second, you moved the argument to a new goal that the EES being based on evolutionary principles has nothing to do with the central assumptions of the modern synthesis being disproved. But how is that relevant to my specific argument?

As I said before, disapproving the MS central assumptions was mainly triggered by the new finds of Molecular Biology (See #781). The EES emerged to address the contradiction of the MS with contemporary molecular evidence and to integrate advances of the biosciences and new fields of research such as molecular biology and systems biology.

Even so disapproving all the MS central assumptions (no exception) logically means disapproving the modern synthesis evolutionary concept itself as a hypothesis that evidently contradicts empirical evidence but regardless, scientists continued to structure the new conceptual framework in light of the same evolutionary axiom.

The EES didn’t trigger the need for change or disapproving the MS central assumptions but rather it was the outcome that emerged because of such need. Nonetheless, the fact that evolution is being held as an axiom didn’t change.

As Denis Noble said,” All these assumptions have been disproved in various ways and to varying degrees, and it is also important to note that a substantial proportion of the experimental work that has revealed these breaks has come from within molecular biology itself. Molecular biology can now be seen to have systematically deconstructed its own dogmas” see #781

I never claimed that the EES is what disproved the assumptions of the MS, it was the new finds of molecular biology as stated above but yes, the proposed EES conceptual framework continued to be structured in light of the same evolutionary axiom. From day one, scientists held evolution as an axiom. Evidence, mechanisms, assumptions may have failed but the axiom never changed.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Oh brother...not the same thing at all. Voting for a politician is not the same as citing someone as such an authority in a subject that everyone must pay heed to what they say, but then waiving away other things they say in the same subject.

If you can't grasp the difference, I can't help you.

Didn’t you understand that "voting for a politician" was an example? Didn’t I tell you that you never entirely agree with someone whether its politics, science, philosophy or anything? Don’t you agree? Didn’t I explain that Gould himself acknowledged that his adapted view of evolution is not supported by the real-world observations? Again, he said, “We never see the very process we profess to study”.

Wasn’t that enough for you to understand what I’m talking about? If you do understand, why do you argue?

Now you're just doing it again. If you have to frequently stoop to this sort of behavior, I'll let that speak for itself.

Did What? Can you understand the difference between his adapted views and the facts/observations of the real world? I’m quoting him for the facts not for his adapted views.

Again, all the scientists that I’m quoting are evolutionists and I did explain why. Do you think that I cannot quote an evolutionist scientist as I argue for my position? I believe it’s quite the opposite. Quoting an evolutionist is a much stronger support for my argument. Would you accept if I quote a scientist that is not an evolutionist? I can but you wouldn’t accept it.

Facts can’t be disputed. Interpretations are not facts. It’s a mental state, a relative perception subject to change/corrections or replacement. Cannot you understand the difference?

The moon is made of cheese.

What? My mere say-so wasn't sufficient to convince you to change your mind about the composition of the moon? Well now you know how your empty assertions come across.

I’m not arguing that the moon is made of cheese, I’m arguing that all central assumptions of the MS were disproved. And it’s absolutely not my mere say. It’s not even my say at all; it’s the assertion of top scientists. Your reasoning is flawed/irrelevant. See #781

Again, I'm not about to go with your empty and uninformed assertions. You can believe whatever you want, but I have a hard time believing that you actually think you're being persuasive here. Are you really expecting folks here to change their views based on your say-so?

"Well I know the world's life scientists have all agreed that evolution happens, but some anonymous Muslim at a religious message board says it doesn't, so I guess all those scientists are wrong!"

This is not an argument, at least not a rational one. Again, it’s not my claim. Who I am, is not your concern, attacking the attributes of the person making an argument is a fallacious argument "ad hominem". Your concern is the argument itself not the person, you should demonstrate your reasons against the argument not against the person. Your argument that the majority think so is a fallacious “argumentum ad populum", It’s not a justification for your disagreement with my argument.

Many theories were previously mainstream supported by a scientific consensus but later got disproved/replaced, if widespread acceptance is a proof of validity, then a progress or change would never emerge. All obsolete theories had widespread acceptance at some point in time. Widespread acceptance is never a proof that the theory is not false. Your reasoning is flawed.

Is that what you're expecting? o_O

No, I’m only expecting/hoping to convey a message. That is my only part. What you do with it is your call. You’re free and will continue to be free till the point that you don’t.

Life is a chance/test to freely make your choice, there is no opponent to waste your chance but yourself and no one will bear the burden of your choice but yourself.

You will have your fair chance, once done, there are no second chances, and your choice will have consequences.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Huh? Nothing happened.

Maybe if I say it louder something magical will occur. That must be it. Or maybe continually repeating the name does the trick.

Gerd B. Müller

GERD B. MÜLLER

GERD B. MÜLLER!!!

Even here you’re wrong. The name so often invoked is Denis Noble not Gerd B. Müller.

You should try again with Denis Noble and see what happens. You may get lucky this time.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Human beings have gone through at least two bottlenecks in the last 100,000 years. Still Homo sapiens today. No speciation.

Human beings were always Homo sapiens; all the 8 billion human beings are still Homo sapiens and will never be anything other than Homo sapiens regardless of any myth claiming otherwise.

Below is a copy from #1864

If speciation happens due geographic isolation (the new species can no longer interbreed with original species), then the new species will coexist independently alongside with original species. Speciation is not a reason for original species to go extinct. Gradual speciation necessarily predicts enormous number of species and transitional forms/variants, both alive and in the fossil record. We don’t see that in nature.

If the alleged human transformation from LCA to Homo sapiens ever happened through speciation/transitional forms, then, we should see different human species today especially in isolated geographical areas. THEY CANNOT ALL GO EXTINCT. All living human beings on earth today belong to the same Homo sapiens species. The alleged speciation of humans never happened.

Corn, cotton, soybeans, etc. have all been artificially selected to favor traits of use to people. No evidence that these things have changed species as a result of this ARTIFICIAL SELECTION. No speciation

Exactly, no matter how hard or how long you try artificial selection, you’ll never succeed to create a new species. It will always be a variant of the same species. If you breed a hybrid, it will always be sterile (a dead end).
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Gradualism is a conclusion based on the fossil evidence. Of which several examples of both invertebrate and vertebrate evidence have been presented on this forum.

Of course, the anti-science answer is to deny that this evidence has been presented.

Neither Gould nor Eldredge ever claimed that gradualism does not exist and is not in evidence in the fossil record despite claims that they have shown it does not exist.

Gradualism is a reasoned, logical conclusion of the evidence.

Gradualism is not a conclusion, it’s a hypothesis.

Gradualism is a global claim for every organism ever lived. Relative frequency of evidence is a decisive factor with or against the hypothesis. Examples don’t prove gradualism. That is why Gould and Eldredge declared that gradualism is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record. The issue was never about examples. Exceptions never prove a rule.

upload_2022-9-21_22-38-35.png
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
A little bit about Gerd B. Müller for clarity in this thread. Since it is his name so often invoked as if someone were trying to call up a deity.
Gerd B. Müller - Wikipedia

He has an M.D. and a PhD in zoology. He is a major influence behind the EES. His research has included work on evolutionary novelties and evolution in relation to development. He is a founding member of the Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution and Cognition Research and published on evolutionary developmental biology.

Even as he challenges the standing theory of evolution , clearly he does not deny evolution or natural explanations for the observations of evolution. I cannot imagine such an intelligent, productive scientist rejects the value of Darwin's contributions to science or thinks that contribution is the root and cause of human evil. Certainly, he gives greater weight to the idea of revising the existing Modern Synthesis, but he isn't claiming evolution isn't real or that science cannot devise theories to explain it. Rejecting the Modern Synthesis and establishing the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis does not establish a literal view of some religious text as the default explanation for observations. Especially when there are a multitude of views that fall into that default category and none of them have any evidence and no reason is offered that they should even be considered, let alone accepted.

Is claiming a part of what Müller claims while selectively rejecting other parts of what he claims cherry picking in support of an ideology? I think so. I think that applies to almost every example of scientist I have seen used on this thread for that purpose.

Is it trying to have your cake and eat it too? I think so. I haven't seen any reason it isn't.

As I repeated multiple times, I never advocated for the EES. I’m not concerned what theory would emerge to address the failure of the modern synthesis. That failure was mainly driven by contemporary advances/evidence of molecular biology. The point is, the mainstream ToE (MS) that is still in effect today is false. See #781 and #911.

My concern is the specific reasons that triggered the need for change and the dogmatic resistance against change but what future theory would eventually get agreed upon to replace the modern synthesis is not my concern, when it actually happens, then we may talk.

Regardless of the failure of the modern synthesis, the scientists didn’t give up on evolution as axiom/priori and continue trying to provide new theoretical framework in light of evolutionary concepts.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
There is no evidence that all living things are conscious. No one on this thread has presented such evidence. There is no means for some organisms to support a consciousness. Bacteria and some other single-celled organisms do not have a nervous system, since that is the result of multi-cellularity. There is no evidence showing consciousness in more complex organisms like arthropods either. The evidence of consciousness is not found in such life. Only evidence that they respond. Consciousness isn't considered a basal trait defining something as living.

I know this won't stop some believers, but at the very least, perhaps they will see the hurdles they have to clear in order support their claims. That is, any that make an attempt to support claims. Some do not.

Empirical evidence of intelligence manifestations including decision-making, problem-solving, quorum sensing, associative learning, adaptive behavior, cooperative behavior in populations, have been found at a microbial level in organisms such as Protozoa, Algae, Bacteria and Viruses.

See # 226

- "Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought"
"We see now that bacteria are, in their way, big thinkers, and by knowing how they 'feel' about the environment around them, we can look at new and different ways to work with them."
Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought -- ScienceDaily

- Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart
Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart (evo2.org)

- How bacteria choose a lifestyle
How bacteria choose a lifestyle | Nature

- Brainy bacteria could revolutionize healthcare
Brainy bacteria could revolutionise healthcare | Research | The Guardian

- Microbial intelligence
Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia

If we find evidence of intelligence, then we may consider the possibility that the organism has some sort of consciousness. Otherwise, if the organism itself is not "conscious", then these manifestations can be attributed to an external conscious intelligence, similar to the example of artificial intelligence (AI) being a manifestation of external (human) intelligence responsible for the programming of the intelligent functions.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
They become smaller in height, but more stockier than their eastern cousins. Their paws are wider enabling better movements on snow, their fur thicker

You’re taking about characteristics moving in the right logical direction to allow the animal to better fit within the environment. The question is how and why would it move on the right track towards a logical goal?

Your answer is that numerous random mutations keep emerging and among millions of non-beneficial or harmful changes its possible that an accidental beneficial change that matches what the organism needs to survive may emerge.

Here is the problem:

- If the process is random, the accidental beneficial change that the organism specifically needs to survive may never emerge regardless of how long the process is. Based on the number of genes in a genome and possible combinations/interactions that can be randomly produced, there wouldn’t be enough material not just in planet earth but in the whole universe for nature to have tried more than a small fraction of possible interactions, not every possible random mutation occurs. The chance for accidental emergence of the specific required change for the survival of the organism is extremely slim. The process would be extremely slow and without any guarantee of any kind that the right change would ever emerge.
See # 1517. Darwin's Illusion | Page 76 | Religious Forums

- The random process of numerous non-beneficial mutations is necessarily a very long process, during which the organism exposed to harsh (life-threatening) environment or conditions can't wait millions of years for a specific accidental beneficial change (that may never occur) to have a chance of survival. If the organism doesn’t have what it takes to survive from day one, it will not persist waiting for the lucky change, it will simply not survive. See # 2137. Darwin's Illusion | Page 107 | Religious Forums

- There was never evidence of any kind that numerous non-beneficial or harmful random mutations keep emerging accidentally among the living organisms. See # 1992 and # 1968. Darwin's Illusion | Page 99 | Religious Forums
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You’re taking about characteristics moving in the right logical direction to allow the animal to better fit within the environment. The question is how and why would it move on the right track towards a logical goal?

Your answer is that numerous random mutations keep emerging and among millions of non-beneficial or harmful changes its possible that an accidental beneficial change that matches what the organism needs to survive may emerge.

LIIA. My example was that of "Natural Selection", not that of "Mutations". You are talking about Mutations, which is a different evolutionary mechanism.

The changes in environment, result in selective pressures for changes and adaption. That’s Natural Selection mechanism.

There are a number of different types of mechanisms in evolutionary biology, actually the number of mechanisms are currently five. Each one describes a different process as to how “evolution” might work, and Natural Selection related to the changes in environments, and how that changes might impact on organisms. So the environments are selective pressures that drive changes to organisms, where they must adapt to the new conditions in the changed environments.

In Natural Selection. The adaption isn't random, nor accidental.

You seriously don't understand the word random or accidental, do you?

And seriously, you should understand the distinctions between "Natural Selection" and "Mutations".
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I never claimed that the EES is what disproved the assumptions of the MS
So all you have to support your claim that the central assumptions of the MS have been disproved is a paper by Denis Noble.

Does the fact that evolutionary biologists have rejected his arguments mean anything to you? Have his arguments about non-random mutations had any impact at all on the fields of genetics or evolutionary biology?

Because as it stands, your argument can be summed up as "because Denis Noble said so".

Didn’t you understand that "voting for a politician" was an example? Didn’t I tell you that you never entirely agree with someone whether its politics, science, philosophy or anything? Don’t you agree? Didn’t I explain that Gould himself acknowledged that his adapted view of evolution is not supported by the real-world observations? Again, he said, “We never see the very process we profess to study”.

Wasn’t that enough for you to understand what I’m talking about? If you do understand, why do you argue?
LOL....you can wave your arms and stomp your feet all you like, but the fact remains, you have been cherry-picking from your own experts.

Of course I don't expect you to admit it either. Such is the nature of creationism.

I’m not arguing that the moon is made of cheese, I’m arguing that all central assumptions of the MS were disproved. And it’s absolutely not my mere say. It’s not even my say at all; it’s the assertion of top scientists.
No, it's the assertion of Denis Noble, and an assertion that has had no impact on evolutionary biology. You can repeat his assertions all you like, but it won't change anything.

You will have your fair chance, once done, there are no second chances, and your choice will have consequences.
Ah yes, what would an exchange with a creationist be without a threat of "you'll get yours when you die"?

That makes me wonder....do you think a person who believes that evolution occurs, humans share a common ancestry with other primates, and all life shares a common ancestry will be punished for that in the afterlife?
 
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